[DISCUSSION] Orange Caramel is no longer a sub unit of After School

According to some comments I've seen on Youtube, Orange Caramel is no longer a sub unit of After School they are now an independent group.

LawlietKun11 wrote:They were a sub unit at the beginning, but they became so popular that Pledis announced them as an independent group, so if they leave AS doesn't implied they'll leave OC?

When and where did Pledis announced Orange Caramel was an independent group?

RubenViz wrote:They are not longer a sub-unit. Nana said in a interview OC is a independent group now.

In what interview did Nana say that OC is an independent group now?

Avril Means wrote:@RubenViz Actually they're still a sub-unit since that girls are part of After School. But, with their popularity is growing so fast they will graduated together from the main group (AS) and OC will finally become a independent group.

Sorry to disappoint you Avril Means( not really ) but I don't think OC will graduate together from After School anytime soon no matter how popular they are. In the 2013 October issue of Esquire magazine Nana said,

"I don’t want to graduate from After School. I want to keep promoting and releasing albums with After School and Orange Caramel in my 20s. In my 30s, I want to challenge something different from what I have done."

Going by what Nana has said it's going to be at least another 7 more years before OC will graduate together from After School

RubenViz wrote:@Avril Means they are registrated as a diferent group wich make them a diferent group since lipstick, so yeah they are a independent group.

Tai Sai wrote:@RubenViz , @LawlietKun11 I've never heard/read anything nor could I find anything about Pledis announcing OC was an independent group or Nana saying OC is an independent group. You guys look like you are lying. Can you give me links to where Pledis or Nana has said OC is an independent group?

Ross Henderson wrote:@Tai Sai I'm actually searching for it as well because I remember Nana saying in an interview during/after Lipstick promotions that they became an independent group from the large popularity they got all over asia so that if the other members pulled out of AS they would still be in OC. I see it on their wikipedia page and even AS wikis and kpop wikis but looking for the actual interview, I remember it...

@Ross Henderson I think you've remembered wrong. Here's what the "Orange Caramel Continues Even After We Graduate From AS" Soompi interview in September 20, 2012 says,

When asked about their graduation, Orange Caramel responded, “Graduation isn’t something that you go through just because you or someone else want to.” Raina added, “I’m guessing that we won’t be graduating for a while. It’s not something we could do just because we want to. You have to be prepared to be on your own to graduate. Even though one of us might graduate from After School sometime in the future, I don’t think that will affect Orange Caramel. It’s a graduation from After School, not Orange Caramel, so they must be separate, right?”

As you can see they've never mentioned anything about Orange Caramel being an independent group.

Wikipedia says(before I deleted it),

"According to an interview with the member Nana shortly after the release of the album Lipstick, this group is no longer considered a sub-unit After School, but because as a group independent thanks to its popularity in several countries in Asia. If she Raina and Lizzy decided to withdraw from After School, that does not mean the disappearance of Orange Caramel, the group could continue their activities without problems."

But if you look at change history of the Orange Caramel Wikipedia page that paragraph was add to that page a few of day after the first of those Youtube comments about OC being an independent group. There's no citation for that paragraph in Wikipedia but I know someone copied and pasted it from http://www.generasia.com/wiki/Orange_Caramel because when the first of those comments about OC being an independent group was posted on Youtube the only place I can find anything about it was on the generasia.com wiki and when I check the Orange Caramel page on wikipedia there was nothing about it.


I've searched through all asdaze.com posts from September 12, 2012(i.e. OC Lipstick's release date) to January 1, 2013 and the only post I can find relating to this matter was that Soompi interview post from September 20, 2012 so I'm pretty sure that interview where Nana says OC is no longer considered a sub-unit of After School is either a misinterpretation of that Soompi interview or it does not exist. Even if that interview does exists "no longer considered a sub-unit of After School" means they are no longer thought of as a sub-unit of After School but this does not say they actually are no longer a sub-unit of After School.

Thank you Adam for going through all this work. I read through this before (sorry I didn't comment) and was really impressed by all your hard work (even on the wiki page!) and also shocked this was an issue.

However, since reading this I've ran into a couple instances where the issue has come up, and if not for your post I would have been lost and questioning myself as well!

So thank you so much <3 This was really helpful for me personally, and I'm sure it will be very useful in the future for others as well. (As I'm sure the issue won't go away for a long time haha~~)

Side Note: Also, koodos to you! I like how you wrote it in the "as of now" voice. This information could change, but as of right now~~ this is how things stand^^ No matter what, i'm sure ASDaze will always be a place to spaz about both~!

Thanks again!

@Sarah, WOW 3 thanks in one post. I definitely felt your gratitude LOL<3 Your welcome, I'm glad you enjoy that post and found it useful

I haven't heard anyone from OC talking about graduating from the group. The closest anyone has referred to OC's status in the group is the interview with the CEO of Pledis. If I remember correctly, what he said there is that even if the three members were to graduate from After School, OC will still continue. That is to say that their contract under OC is now independent from their contract in AS.

It doesn't say anything about whether or not OC is still a sub-unit of AS, but it does interestingly point out that the members of the group also have a separate contract for it

albeitalways wrote:I haven't heard anyone from OC talking about graduating from the group. The closest anyone has referred to OC's status in the group is the interview with the CEO of Pledis. If I remember correctly, what he said there is that even if the three members were to graduate from After School, OC will still continue. That is to say that their contract under OC is now independent from their contract in AS.

Are you talking about this Star News interviews Pledis CEO, Han Sung Soo [Thinking about the Next Graduate...] interview? If it is then I think you've remember wrong because in that interview he never says if the three members were to graduate from After School, OC will still continue and he never says anything about OC is now independent from their contract in AS.

Let Orange Caramel graduate from After School and let them be a own group.
Making After School as a 5 member group would be a new fresh start again.

PrinceX wrote:Let Orange Caramel graduate from After School and let them be a own group.
Making After School as a 5 member group would be a new fresh start again.

@PrinceX LOL hearing that from another After School fan hurts. OK FINE if that's how you want it, graduate UEE, E-young and Kaeun as well. Bring back Kahi, Bekah and Soyoung and there's your 5 member group with a fresh start...hmm that was a joke it case anyone is not getting. I don't want anyone to graduate.

Don't get me wrong, when i became a After School fan in 2009, i had some issues with the graduation concept too.
But now after 5 years, i'm used to it.
Making Jungah, Juyeon, Uee, E-young and Gaeun as a 5 member group would be a good idea actually. Maybe adding a new 6th member to the group.
Orange Caramel are really popular that they can be a independent group.
Of course, they can still work with Pledis and have some cooperation with Ater School.

AS fans should understand that every member is going to graduate sooner or later anyway. People act like they gonna die soon...
And all this "I don't want anyone to garduate" is getting really annoying.
If you still don't like the graduation concept than you should look for a different type of group.

PrinceX wrote:Don't get me wrong, when i became a After School fan in 2009, i had some issues with the graduation concept too.

I don't think you understand the graduation concept. Actually I don't think most fans understand the graduation concept. Can you explain to me the graduation concept and why it's so awesome?

PrinceX wrote:Making Jungah, Juyeon, Uee, E-young and Gaeun as a 5 member group would be a good idea actually. Maybe adding a new 6th member to the group.
Orange Caramel are really popular that they can be a independent group.
Of course, they can still work with Pledis and have some cooperation with Ater School.

As popular as Orange Caramel are, they're not earning enough money to actually afford their own house. Even if they are really popular I still don't want them to graduate because I like see After School together. Nana understands that, Raina understands that but chose Orange Caramel because she gets more attention in Orange Caramel(understandable), Lizzy chose Orange Caramel and that hurts....I'm going to pretend Lizzy doesn't exist for the next 5 minutes now.

PrinceX wrote:AS fans should understand that every member is going to graduate sooner or later anyway.

LIAR....just kidding I agree with you.

PrinceX wrote:And all this "I don't want anyone to garduate" is getting really annoying.

Oh... it annoys you that I miss Kahi and Bekah and it annoys you I'll miss any members that will graduate so "I don't want them to graduate"...OK... good to know I really annoy you   

PrinceX wrote:If you still don't like the graduation concept than you should look for a different type of group.

I LOVE the graduation concept, I think it's awesome. I just don't like  the members graduating because I'll miss seeing them together. If you have trouble understanding the difference let me know and I'll elaborate.

I don’t see Orange Caramel as a sub unit of After School simply because they don’t function like a sub unit does; they promote and release albums like a full-fledged group; while I’m not sure I can’t recall any other sub unit that is so consistently active.

To me what does it matter since it’s more a matter of semantics rather than some sort of schism as at no time has any member of OC said anything about leaving. But even if say Raina were to graduate AS to go solo she still could be a member of OC, or she could have a solo career and still be a member of both groups; why is everyone panicking?

Remember both OC and AS are brand names owned by Pledis so it’s up to them as to who go’s where when it comes to the members.

intrepid wrote:I don’t see Orange Caramel as a sub unit of After School simply because they don’t function like a sub unit does; they promote and release albums like a full-fledged group; while I’m not sure I can’t recall any other sub unit that is so consistently active.

To me what does it matter since it’s more a matter of semantics rather than some sort of schism as at no time has any member of OC said anything about leaving. But even if say Raina were to graduate AS to go solo she still could be a member of OC, or she could have a solo career and still be a member of both groups; why is everyone panicking?

Remember both OC and AS are brand names owned by Pledis so it’s up to them as to who go’s where when it comes to the members.

I think sub unit just refers to the relation of the sub unit group to the main group(without any regards to how they promote) i.e. sub unit group just means all the members in the sub unit group are part of the main group.

intrepid wrote:why is everyone panicking?

We're not panicking here, some fans have stated that OC are now an independent group as well as other things regarding this matter. This thread is to clear these matters up.

The important question is, is it important whether OC is considered a sub unit of After School or not? In practice the answer is no. However you look at it all OC members are also After School members so the amount of love for them doesn't differer whether they are in AS or OC. However semantically it does make a differences because the label "Sub unit of After School" shows how closely tied to After School, Orange Caramel is and this tie I'm quite fond of. It also happens to be a fact that there are fans that want this tie broken and that annoys me. Nana understands this tie and its important to her too and that's another reason why she's my bias out of the all member that haven't graduated yet

PlayboyzAdam wrote:
I think sub unit just refers to the relation of the sub unit group to the main group(without any regards to how they promote) i.e. sub unit group just means all the members in the sub unit group are part of the main group.

Yes a sub unit is made up of a percentage of members from a larger group and as such the general term is used, but if you compare OC to other sub units from other groups you would be hard pressed to find another sub unit as prolific as OC.
It is for this reason you could say OC is completely independent of AS because it operates that way; it isn’t a temporary unit or a special project unit but a true independent self-sufficient group.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:
The important question is, is it important whether OC is considered a sub unit of After School or not? In practice the answer is no. However you look at it all OC members are also After School members so the amount of love for them doesn't differer whether they are in AS or OC. However semantically it does make a differences because the label "Sub unit of After School" shows how closely tied to After School, Orange Caramel is and this tie I'm quite fond of. It also happens to be a fact that there are fans that want this tie broken and that annoys me. Nana understands this tie and its important to her too and that's another reason why she's my bias out of the all member that haven't graduated yet

I don’t think it matters as long as they are members of both groups and as such any fan of them will quickly learn of that association through a simple internet search even if they don’t mention the other group they’re in which won’t happen anyway.
This goes back to what I said in the other thread about how the K-pop business works, any success outside the group activity any member has works to help all the members by a cross pollinisation of popularity.

So long... sorry I'd been away, but it's the first time I load both the site and the forum and spyware doesn't attack me (besides, is my day off XD).

You've said so many things, so I'll try summing up what I have to say:

1. No, for once, I am with Adam, they never stated that. OC is still one side project, sub-unit, meant to not only promote themselves but also drag new fans into AS.

2. Yes, sub-units do get to release full-lenght albums. I recall one from No3b (AKB48), titled as them (No Sleeves), and not sure about those, because I never followed them, but sure Mini-Moni and other AKB's subs got to release from EP's to LP's albums. It all depends on the success that sub-unit may have plus what the label their are signed to wants from them.

3. Right now, I don't believe Pledis has an interest to make of OC a full-time group out of AS. What I see is the efforts they have put on promoting Raina as a vocalist. It all comes from way back when she joined and started gaining main lines, getting collabos on others acts projects, landing solos on both, AS and OC, releases, and such. She's the vocalist they seem to want to launch first out of both, the main and the sub-unit. Maybe they will try the same for Jung-Ah, as she's got some exposure too, but you can't just compare the path they have created to Raina with what they've done with her. Not even when Lizzy had her own side-project with that single got the same promotion.

On a side note, I say I was watching that Playgirlz Japan fan-meeting from 2013, some cuts some nice fan uploaded at youtube, and I trully like the current line-up's efforts to sing better. Perhaps the dance is not equaled in all the members, but I was so far satisfied with how members like Nana, E-Young or Uee sound live nowadays.

Nana has given solid vocals in her own cute-childish voice for a while now, while Lizzy has contributed too to give on-pitch parts to their lives, however Lizzy doesn't get as many solo-exposure as Nana or Raina do. I like that these 3 OC members can blend in with Uee, Kaeun, E-Young and, of course, Jung-Ah and Juyeon. I like the overall AS, even when I believe 1 or 2 more members could add something we lack such as stronger raps (yes Kaeun's good, but Lizzy still sounds too sweet) and, maybe, a member able to harmonize with the most solid vocalists. I appreciate harmonies, I was glad to see Kaeun and E-Young tried some in one of the song's chorus. But that is just my will, whether they add members or not is not in my hands, appreciating the fact that OC are in AS and they both have each other, it is.

OKDR wrote:2. Yes, sub-units do get to release full-lenght albums. I recall one from No3b (AKB48), titled as them (No Sleeves), and not sure about those, because I never followed them, but sure Mini-Moni and other AKB's subs got to release from EP's to LP's albums. It all depends on the success that sub-unit may have plus what the label their are signed to wants from them.

I wouldn’t compare AKB48 to Orange Caramel for two reasons, one that they are Japanese, and two because they have somewhere around 140 members!

The reasons I differentiate Orange Caramel from other “Korean” sub-units is firstly they don’t have a name derived from the main group, like Sistar19 is a sub unit of Sistar and AOA Black is a sub of AOA, and secondly they have consistently released mini-albums every year since forming; I even remember an interview where they mentioned that Orange Caramel was the first sub-unit to release a full length album.

Orange Caramel have a distinct identity not tied to After School and operate like an independent group, so much so that I would surmise they have fans that aren’t even After School fans or even interested in AS they are that different.
I don’t think Pledis is interested in making OC independent but then again why would they? OC has a different promotional cycle to AS so one doesn’t interfere with the others activities; therefore there would be no need to do so.

AKB as a recording act are as well as AS, specially since AS took some of their concepts as well as MoMusu's. And when they went to make tgat sub-unit, they were mostly channelling the Japanese groups systems for that, more than anything K-Pop had seen before. You have groups like V6 or Fairies, with their own subs that have concepts that are different from the main unit. AS borrows more from Japanese companies than their own country ones. The whole main concept of AS is an attempt to emulate the Morning Musume system plus other idol companies systems, from the graduations and additions, calling the trainees Pre-School Girls, and having sub-groups that can be estable.

OKDR wrote:1. No, for once, I am with Adam, they never stated that. OC is still one side project, sub-unit, meant to not only promote themselves but also drag new fans into AS.

 @OKDR  also, glad to see you're back. Sorry I can't add more to this discussion, right I'm working on the issue of the unwarranted h8 for Nana but still looking forwards to reading posts from both you and intrepid on this discussion.

http://www.kdrama.com/en/watch/21195

I got all excited @16:28 when Catallena played in the background   

That is all   

PlayboyzAdam wrote:

OKDR wrote:1. No, for once, I am with Adam, they never stated that. OC is still one side project, sub-unit, meant to not only promote themselves but also drag new fans into AS.

 @OKDR  also, glad to see you're back. Sorry I can't add more to this discussion, right I'm working on the issue of the unwarranted h8 for Nana but still looking forwards to reading posts from both you and intrepid on this discussion.

Thanks for the welcome ;P Yeah the spyware was a pain, now it's on one of my blogger blogs and I seriously don't know how to get rid of it, being a free blogspot, I don't want people experiencing the same thing while loading the page >< Thankfully, is not in this server (ASD) anymore.

Sub-units for other Korean groups, post-AS mostly, have always been due to the trend, althought for large groups such as Rainbow or AoA it does make the same sense, since they try to show different sides of their members, different possibilities. SNSD's purpose, was probably the main idea to put the best vocalists together because, at that point in their careers, it was obvious they didn't need a sub-unit for promotion. As for 4Minute's 2 YOON, it was about time they gave them a chance, althought it's a fact that in 4Minute the main seller is Hyuna, I wouldn't mind it if all of them got their side/sub-unit projects, now they're established, but those will always be part of the group. Just like when SPEED (Japanese group) members all had their solo opportunities while still being non-disbanded (they are active now again, as a group).

When OC was created it was needed that the newest members had their own showcase room, and it was probably planned from the beginning. Notice how after a couple of years, more details on their training days had been revealed, allowing us to know that some of them were already Pre-School Girls when the group was debuting, getting ready to join. The thing is AS main idea never worked on its full for several reasons, be the fact fans love their own main concept of being like a school and complain to see new members join because they automatically fear seeing members go (which, it seems, wasn't the plan until they reached a 10-12 member status). If they had sticked to the plan, meaning: No SoYoung graduating this early, no Bekah leaving (twice, first as a reflexion period, then permanently) and Kahi's first solo project (notice her solo out of AS is listed by Pledis as her "second" release, so she's the one who's not a sub/inside AS project anymore), we'd probably would seen something interesting coming built around E-Young (and probably including, at least Yoo Ara and Yoonjo, and maybe Nicole or Lime); judging by that New Year's tweet official Pledis account made about "expect great things from Black Bird" (something similar), assuming BB was E-Young since it was tweeted right beside her performance debut at the GD, we all thought that would be the next step to promote the group: showcasing more of their line-up.

But then Bekah finally left, and plans were changed, wherever those were (the always rumored re-vamp of the AS original line-up and the Violet Girls sub-group). Who knows? Maybe at first, HelloVenus were meant to be a sub-unit were Fantagio took part in it, or maybe not. Maybe that is why half of the Pre-school girls who were next on the line to become AS members, ended up there.

Along with that, we have the reason why OC sky-rocketed to fame. Their first to releases were popular enough, despite the concept was sort of shocking for K-Pop fans at first, especially A-ing~ gained them more popularity; but their breakthrough was Bangkok City, and that wouldn't been released when it was if the Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami didn't happen. They were settled to debut (AS) in Japan at that time, so if they had just continued with the plan, probably BC would've been released way later, and they'd been just too caught up on the uproar of Bang! that things would've been certaintly different. However, these are things we will never know. The only certain thing we have is that OC is still part of the whole AS structure and, if they ever dare to continue with their main system, it will come a day we'll see another sub-unit or solo project spin off that won't involve any of the current OC members.

And as for OC future they could:

A. End up branching out as a group, getting the members graduated, whether if it's gradually or all at once. Just like how Kahi keeps with her solo, settling her first release on her AS days.

B. Graduate gradually while leaving the empty spots in OC to new members (something that may shock K-Pop fans but wouldn't shock fans who're used to J-Pop)

C. Not graduate from AS, but having, probably, Raina leave as OC member since it seems they are trying to push her forward as a solo vocalist.

And within' that, they could still build a new sub-unit or create a SP unit, just like CUBE has Troublemaker, with members coming from different Pledis groups.

However, right now, it seems Pledis has already its hands full with projects that started 2 years ago and still haven't been fullfilled.

Concrete proof that Orange Caramel is still a sub-unit of After School.