[DISCUSSION] Who is After School's Nana and why the h8 for her.

Who is After School's Nana and why the h8 for her.

....OK, so much 8h...where to start? Let's start with a common argument Nana haters use, she's fake. I'm reluctant to even call those arguments because an arguments is "a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory". Calling Nana fake is a result of extreme ignorance, stupidity, prejudice or h8 against Nana. I've seen attempts to justified these statements against Nana and level of reasoning and the level of standard by which fans are willing to consider their arguments valid is ridiculously low.
Most of the recent h8 for Nana surface after Nana receive that world #2 title and it grew as she went on Style Log and Roommate. Nana was hated long before that so let's start there.


Nana's cold personality

Prior to that world #2 title some people thought Nana has a cold personality because people misunderstood her. The truth was that Nana was shy so she didn't like to speak much.





Nana wasn't cold, anyone that knows her or has paid attention to her in Playgirlz School would know that.


https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t255-interview-140324-orange-caramel-at-kbs-jjchr-2pm

KBS JJC&HR 2PM wrote:
Raina: Nana is charismatic too. She may seem quiet, cold and chic. Though she really..is..chic.
Nana: I talk a lot.
Raina: She's actually really funny.
MC: But she has a cold image.
Raina: She's actually not.

LOL, Like E-young and Raina have both said, Nana is actually really funny.



Annoying over the top fist-calling aegyo

Nana has also received a lot of h8 for the way she acts around men in Style Log and Roommate(she's more comfortable in Style Log and Roommate now so she doesn't act like that much any more) with the over the top fist-calling aegyo...that's Nana's hater's fault and everyone else that's ever criticized Nana for being cold. In case fans have forgotten Nana hasn't always been like that. That aegyo she does is a relatively recent development to stop people thinking she was cold.

@0:59-1:05


@1:45-1:48



Nana learnt aegyo and went on Roommate just to shows she's not cold, she's actually fun and approachable.

http://www.allkpop.com/article/2014/05/nana-talks-about-roommate-and-how-it-feels-to-have-the-2nd-most-beautiful-face-for-allure

allure wrote:
She also shared her reason for joining 'Roommate', "When I got the casting offer, I didn't think about it and said I would do it right away. On talk shows, I'm shown the questions beforehand so I already have a good general idea of what I will say and I felt that it was slightly uncomfortable and stiff."
"I hesitate and end up not talking a lot so I think I gave off a cold impression. I think a reality show that shows me as I am suits me. Honestly, I am a very carefree style. I will be able to show a totally different image from my image on stage."

https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t255-interview-140324-orange-caramel-at-kbs-jjchr-2pm

KBS JJC&HR 2PM wrote:
MC to Nana: so you're like that with all guys(i.e. act tought towards)?
Nana: no..(?)
Raina: She started practicing aegyo

Is Nana narcissistic?

Since gaining that world #2 title fans have been claiming that Nana keeps shoving that title in their faces...OK, can someone please point out incidents where Nana shoves that title in their faces. The media are the ones that keeps reporting it and Nana is the one's that gets blamed? Seriously the rationality this fandom exhibits is ridiculously messed up. Also the media isn't doing anything wrong, they find it to be an interesting topic to interview her about and they are entitle to do so. The ones that are wrong are the the fans, if fans don't want to know about it, then don't listen to it, watch it or read about it, simple!

After the preview and first episode or Roommate aired, fans criticized Nana for being narcissistic because of that world #2 poster. If Nana was really was narcissistic wouldn't Nana choose to place that world #2 poster in a place that would be frequently seen by everyone or somewhere frequently filmed by the cameras ? For example like Se Ho's poster here or behind the couch where Se Ho's poster use to be.


But Nana choose to place her world #2 poster in one of the least filmed places in the show and its been there ever since episode 1. This scene here in episode 1 would be the last time(for now at least, right now the latest episode is episode 9) you can fully see that poster because the show only films from that angle when someone walks out of the bathroom(I don't think the show considers Nana or Soo Hyun walking out the bath room interesting)


The next time when viewers can see enough of that poster to be 100% certain that it still exists is in episode 6, but even then it's filmed from a really bad angle and you can't see a lot of it.


It's obvious Nana didn't bring that world #2 poster to Roommate to rub in people's faces. She brought it there for herself because she's proud of it.

In cases fans have forgotten, when Nana first found out she ranked world #2 on that TC Candler list, she thought she didn't deserved that title and was embarrassed by it.

https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t255-interview-140324-orange-caramel-at-kbs-jjchr-2pm

KBS JJC&HR 2PM wrote:
DJ : I heard Nana was ranked #2 on 'the most beautiful faces in the world'?
Nana : Yes.. Thank you
DJ : What kind of rank is it?
Nana : It's a rank released yearly by TC Chandler. I ranked #2 out of 100 most beautiful faces in the world.
DJ : Marion Cotillard was ranked #1..
Raina : I like her..she's a france actress and she's really charming..
DJ : Nana, did you feel sad that you didn't get #1?
Nana : Nope.. actually.. it's kind of nonsense that I ranked #2. There are a lot of beautiful women in Korea. And to say that I rank #2.. I kind of shy.. and embarassed

http://www.soompi.com/2014/01/19/after-schools-nana-reveals-members-reaction-upon-her-making-the-100-most-beautiful-faces-of-2013-list/#.U7YVl5SSzYE

soompi.com wrote:
Nana started off by saying, “It is honestly very amazing. My parents and friends congratulated me a lot and really liked the news.” However, she then revealed how the rest of After School reacted to her achievement, and could not help but laugh as she said, “The members think the same as me. They think it’s ridiculous.”
She continued, “Still, Jung Ah said to me, ‘Nana, be proud about it and have some self-respect,’ and made me feel happy with her nice words.”

"Be proud", "have self-respect"...that's what she's been trying to do.



There's been claims that she has pictures of herself hung everywhere. That is an over exaggeration. She's only got a total 4 pictures(from what I've seen at leastt) in Roommate. All of which are hung within her room except the life size card board cut out of her which she moves around and for one episode(i.e. the one where Soo Hyn wirte letters to everyone) it was outside her room next to her door but most of the time it's in her room.

Nana's pictures on windowsill and above bed.


Life size cardboard cut out in her room.


Life size cardboard cut out moved outside room.



Nana isn't narcissistic, she's misunderstood. To put thing things into perspective for you guys, out of all the members in After School, UEE is the most narcissistic. Actually I think UEE is the only person in After School that fits the the definition of narcissistic.

OK guys, in case you haven't noticed yet, UEE really really loves the camera. @2:54-3:13, she could of simply said it where she was but she wanted the class leader's spot.


@3:05-3:30 Nana calls her out on her narcissism and then UEE chokes on her words when she replies.


LOL @3:29-3:37 UEE's narcissistic reaction to Nana saying she looks cute and innocent like a baby without makeup.


@1:32-1:36....UEE being self-centred(pun intented) and narcissistic. I cheered for everyone until 1:32. Sometimes it's funny to see UEE being self-centred but this time I find it rather annoying...I happen to like seeing E-young at the centre of the stage.


Also for those who know what I'm talking about, UEE has in her living room a giant picture of herself painted to the wall, I think the scene that it was shown from was an episode of WGM but it's been years now so I'm having trouble remembering what episode it was from. For those who don't know what I'm talking about ignore this point as it doesn't count as concrete proof without an actual reference.

I've got a feeling that I'm going to receive alot of h8 for calling UEE out on her narcissism and selfishness. If you guys are going to be calling me a UEE hater then consider if I am an UEE hater why would I aggreesively defend UEE like I have done for any After School member and After School or compliment her like I've done below?

Comment on AS First Love MV on 1thek channel.


Comment on AS First Love MV on pledisartist channel.


From what I've seen, most of you (including the fans that has been here from After School's debut and other fans senior to me) don't know After School as well as you think you do. There's more to UEE's narcissism and selfishness than what I've mentioned but non of that even need mentioning because UEE has already announce to fans what she's really like but I think most if not all fans didn't pay much attention to it. Instead of jumping to the conclusion that I'm a UEE hater, how about trying the rational approach and assess the validity of my arguments and if you feel the validity of the evidence or arguments I provided is refutable then join the discussion. There are Nana vs UEE polls where I've seen comments where fans choose UEE because they claim Nana has a bad personality. I don't see what's wrong with Nana's personally, Nana's personality is awesome but I know for a fact UEE has a lot of personality problems. UEE has her good points like the ones I mention when I defend her but she also has her bad points and sometimes those bad points cause problems.


Is Nana disrespectful to seniors?

Nana recieved a lot of criticism for her so-called disrespect to her seniors. So lets assess validity of these claims.

http://netizenbuzz.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/nana-struggles-with-onslaught-of.html

netizenbuzz wrote:
It's basic manners to speak formally to your seniors.

^What a load of rubbish. It's basic manners to talk formally to your seniors if you don't know them very well or you have no intention of getting close to them. The truth is that it's annoying and disrespectful to your senior if they want a close relationship with you but you keep distancing yourself from them with formal speech and the other seniority stuff. That's why Win Woo gets annoyed with Ga Yeon when she uses honorifics when speaking to him and that's why they made that wrist slapping game where if Ga Yeon uses formal speech on Win Woo, Ga Yeon gets punished with a wrist slap.

http://asdaze.com/?p=79490

Queeshi wrote:disrespect with the comedian

@Queeshi please don't tell me you're talking about moments like these...






It's obvious some fans have problems understanding humour. Nana treats Jo Se Ho the way she does not because she's trying to be disrespectful, Nana does it for comic relief(i.e. to add in humour to take away the seriousness and make it more fun) and maybe she was playing hard to get too. The way Nana treats Se Ho is similar to the way Juyeon bullies Jung Ah i.e. for fun not with malicious intent.  In case you haven't noticed Jo Se Ho isn't the only comedian/gagman in the show. Nana in her own rights, is a great comedian/gagman and has been working hard to make the show more fun.

If you review the part where Se Ho asks Nana would she like to go together to eat intestines you'll find that the other room mates all crack up laughing after hearing Nana's response and in the animated GIF above you can even see Min Woo cracks up laughing instantly when he hears Nana reply.

Two comedians going at each other like that, it's funny....has the mass ignorance and stupidity that been plaguing this fandom really blinded you guys from this, either that or are you guys are too concerned about Nana to enjoy the show?...arrg, I don't have time for this, screw it I'm not going to try to explain humour to you guys. Here's some evidences to show that Nana really likes and cares for Se Ho instead.




http://asdaze.com/?p=79490

Queeshi wrote:.....don't be disrespect with the elders

@Queeshi, when has Nana been disrespectful to the elders? Here's some example to show that Nana IS respectful to her seniors.

After Dara and Minzy went to join the Roommate side, CL is left all alone. Nana recognised this and shouts "WOW, I like CL" and then goes to her side and hugs her. You can see how well synced Nana and CL are by they way they both react to Bom(LOL, Bom seems pretty jealous/possessive) as she goes to pull Nana away from CL and pay attention to how sad CL looks in the last 3 frames after Bom pulls Nana away.


And don't give me that, "Nana should have respected CL and been more formal to her because she doesn't like that level of closeness"....firstly, Nana has a much better sense of respect than you guys are giving her credit for. Secondly CL may say she doesn't like hugs with her words but her uncontrollable smiling tells the truth and she's even got that eye smile thing happening. LOL, Bom's jealousy when Nana hugs CL.


Nana gives Sung Woo a present she brought for him from Japan and in the process Sung Woo finds meaning in celebrating birthdays. LOL, if Nana gave me a present I'll find meaning in celebrating birthdays too.


Se Ho's parents' impression of how Nana treats them.



Is Nana's a dumb bimbo

Both fans and haters of hers have this idea that Nana is a dumb bimbo. Nana is actually very aware of her environment and continuously thinking of ways to be funny and entertaining.

Consider in Episode 4 of Roommate how Nana greets Bom with a bow and stick out her cup cake hat(I think, hard to tell because of crappy camera angle) and Bom comments on how funny her greeting was. Also when they ask her are those cup cakes real she answers "No. Have a bite."

Click to see pics:

To actually be put on the spot like that by Juyeon and carry out her crazy tasks requires quick thinking, especially when one of the crazy tasks involves spitting on someone you've just met.


See 7:56-8:16 as well.


The cognitive effort required to assess the situation, plan out what to do to fit that situation and execute the plan that Nana demonstrates is far beyond that of a bimbo.

As demonstrated by these examples Nana is not a dumb bimbo and she's no fool either. In  episode 6 of Roommate, everyone except for Nana and Dong Wook fell for Bom and Min Woo's prank. Well Dong Wook gets a bit confused after Bom and Min Woo try to reveal it but for the most part he was very sure it was trick.



The 4 minute thing

When this was aired, fans thought that Nana was disrespecting 4 Minute.


Nana is entitle to her opinion and it's not like she publicly announced it on TV to hurt 4 Minutes' feelings(also keep in mind that what Bom said might not be exactly what Nana really told her), Nana probably just said that to Bom to try and get closer to Bom. Bom was the one announcing it on TV but I don't think she has any intentions of disrespecting 4 Minute either, Bom was probably just trying to explain how close Bom and Nana are.
Unfortunately, this may distant Nana from 4 Minute...I hope not. Are there any 4NIAs in this fandom that can enlighten me on how what 4NIA and 4 Minute feel about this issue?

In case anyone don't understand what the problem is, the problem is there are some Plagirlz/Playboyz(including me), that would like to see After School and 4 Minute get closer. So for me what happened here was disappointing and I guess I can understand how some 4NIA might get annoyed by this as well.


If there was someone to be blame then it's really Bom's fault not Nana's, although I'm not going to hold it against Bom. It would have been fine if Bom didn't announce it on TV and just kept it to herself or she could have said Nana gave her encouragement to win instead of saying Nana said she should have won(that implies 4 minute is inferior to 2NE1...which is the problem). Bom has a bad habit of opening her mouth and offending people but she doesn't do it on purpose.






CL Thing

...that CL scandal is a fine demonstration of the pinnacle of fan's ignorance and stupidity. You guys persist to believe Pledis is what's holding After School from becoming more successful when the fact is that your deluded ideas of reality is blinding you from the fact that THIS FANDOM IS WHAT'S HOLDING BACK AFTER SCHOOL!!!! THAT'S RIGHT, IT'S YOUR PERCEPTION OF REALITY THAT'S FAKE, NOT NANA.

I'm sorry for the rant and harsh words guys, but throughout this post there has been several times by brain when on strike and blanked out as it refused to continue to deal with your ignorance and stupidity. This is really building up and several times I've told myself I want out, SCREW YOU GUYS, SCREW THIS FANDOM.....but I just can't say that for After School so I'm now stuck with you guys for better or worst(as Queeshi had once said for Nana).

After fans saw the teaser for episode 4 of Roommate (the teaser at the end of episode 3 with the English translations on KshowNow has now been remove) Fans said that Nana's hug is fake (and hence Nana is fake) because fans thought that CL said Nana and Bom's energy don't match.


This article http://netizenbuzz.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/nana-meets-cl-on-roommate.html   from netizenbuzz  says that CL said "I don't think our energies match"  at Nana's skinship explosion....OK my brain is in serious strike mode again......BOTH THOSE ACCOUNTS OF REALITY ARE AS FALSE AS THESE RIDICULOUS CLAIMS THAT NANA IS FAKE.

What's not shown in the teaser is that a LOT happened between Nana and Bom's hug and when CL says "I don't think our energies match", but this matter should have been cleared when episode 4 aired.

Before CL said "I don't think our energies match", Dara joins the Roommate side after everyone finds out that if a Roommate and a guess pairs up they can also go on an over seas trip and all that happened after CL asked about the over seas trip for couples.


So when CL says "I don't think our energies match" it was in the context of the discussion about the over sea trip for couples NOT the discussion about the hug between Nana and Bom which has already passed.

Given the context of where CL said "I don't think our energies match" she could be talking about Dara as Dara has just joined the Roommate side after learning about the oversea trip and you can see how close Nana, Bom and Dara are together. But I think the most accurate explanation for CL's words is that she's saying she doesn't think her energy and the Roommates(i.e. all the roommates in the show) match. Basically she's saying she doesn't fit in with the show. This is evident if you consider how interested CL was in the over sea trip for couples.



In this seen look at how happy/exited CL was when they successfully got Dara to join the Roommate side.


Then look at this scene where Dara calls CL out on the face CL was making. We don't get to see CL's face at that time but given how she look when Dara joined the Roommate side and how interested she was in the over seas trip I image she look uncontrollably excited.


AND THEN finally CL say's "I don't think our energies match".


but regardless of what CL says, CL still gets encourage to go on Roommate



There's various reason for why that that hug between Nana and Bom looks awarkward,

1) Nana was nervous.


2) The hug arrangement it'self was awkward with Bom hugging Nana around the neck and Nana bending her kness to hug Bom and considering how much taller Nana is compared to Bom.


3) It's a combination of 1 and 2.

What ever the reason, the stuff about fans claiming that CL said Bom and Nana's energy don't match well together and that article on netizenbuzz is a load of rubbish.

That Nana and 2NE1 interaction segment was suppose to be very funny and entertaining. HOW THE HELL DO YOU TURN SOMETHING LIKE THAT INTO SUCH A SCANDAL, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.......oh right, the mass ignorance and stupidity.

OK, back to the question of "Who is After School's Nana and why the h8 for her." After School's Nana is an incredibly beautiful person inside and out, stuck in a world of mass ignorance and stupidity that has been continuously perpetuating h8, ignorance and lies against her.

....it's not hard to see how beautiful Nana really is, just drop all the lies and misunderstandings

@Queeshi, let's continue our disucssion on this forum. If you're not a Nana hater and you feel offended by my words then I'm sorry. It's just that you look like a Nana hater, you think like and Nana hater and you certainly speak like a Nana hater.

What'a more, by your very own defintion of what a hater is,

Queeshi wrote:a hater is someone who hates a person without a valid reason and insult with harsh words enunciate without valid arguments.

It's sounds like you've defined yourself as a Nana hater. As I've previously said, I'll accept that you're not a Nana hater for now but this doesn't mean I believe you're not a Nana hater. It just means I'm not going to treat you as a Nana hater. You've still got to prove to me that you're not a Nana hater for me to believe you.

Queeshi wrote:
and as you said if I am a hater of NANA you must be a hater of UEE to speak for "One Thing That Gave it away Was That you are a fan UEE and UEE fans are notorious for voicing Their haste for Nana in this fandom. "

which is the hater between us

sorry this is not the first time you speak negatively of UEE in your comments but unlike you if your something constructive to say on her or Juyeon or jungha, euyoung who are my bias I'm not gonna Treaty hater .

Like I said in the post above, if I am UEE hater why would I defend UEE and complement her. Also I don't usually make statements that I can't back up with concrete proof so here's some evidence for the fact that UEE bias fans are notorious for voicing their h8 for Nana in this fandom.






All those comments from are from https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=7Y7s5Q91Zzg (obviously except the FL MV one, that's just there to show April Love is UEE bias) and you should take note that ALL the h8 comments directed at Nana on that video are from UEE bias fans calling Nana fake.

As for "sorry this is not the first time you speak negatively of UEE in your comments...." when have I ever spoke negatively of UEE, you can't count when I said UEE bias fans are notorious for voicing their h8 for Nana because that's said to UEE bias fans not UEE herself plus I just demonstrated that it was true also you can't count when I called UEE out on being narcissistic and being self-centred in the previous post because that happens to after you accused me of having said negative things about UEE.

@Queeshi wrote:I first came on this site because there's not many fandoms site of "after school" and unfortunately because I think as fans it is shared our views so that we understand each fan to we can better support afterschool.

@Queeshi, it's great you came came to ASDaze to shared your views. I agree sharing views allows us learn about each other and better support After School. However if it is a negative opinion about an After School member don't express it as a fact unless you're very sure you have a valid argument to support it. Otherwise express it as an opinion and lets discuss it to figure out if it is true or not.

@Queeshi, I would like to  elaborate on how the things you've said at http://asdaze.com/?p=79490 damages After School's success and not just Nana's but I don't have time any more. I'll get back to it when I've got time. It's taken 6 days to prepare for the post above and I'm all worn out and tired from that. Next I need to make preparations for the plans for the support project for Nana. If you're not a Nana hater then I trust that you'll also participate in that project as well.

Adam, I know you are far from an anti, but lets not bash other AS members to make one of them look better. It's hurtful to some of their fans and it doesn't sound so good on you either. I know Nana isn't what haters say, actually most of us do. I think your whole idea of explaining the problem with Nana's image was wonderful and that people really needed to read some of this in order to decide if the negative responses on her personality was really reasonable, but lets not redirect the scorn to other members. As a fan of Uee, this made me feel a little awkward and oppressed. Although I may be overreacting about this, I understand what you're trying to say about Nana and I agree with most of it.


Nana has been the subject to harsh comments pretty much after she got the whole 2nd most beautiful title thing and I don't really feel like it makes sense because its not like she nominated herself and put a knife on TC Candler's throat to get on the top 5. This is just something I wanted to bring up but some people say she didn't deserve it because she wasn't as pretty in her past pictures, and I agree that she wasn't, but it still wouldn't make a difference. The list is called "The most beautiful faces of 2013". Now, based on the title, I'm assuming her face only mattered to the list in her 2013 days, in which she was undeniably beautiful. Of course she would have never made it in the 2010 list because her visuals didn't really stand out as much. I'm no pro at spotting differences so I don't know if she got any plastic surgery by 2011-2012, but lets be real, about 70% of that whole list had some kind of work done, so it doesn't matter. By the way, SNSD's Jessica made it to #5 in the 2012 list, and I never saw any scornful comments about it. I guess it's just a matter of who's more popular.

wowous wrote:Adam, I know you are far from an anti, but lets not bash other AS members to make one of them look better.

When have I bash on another member. If you'll going to take the things I've said during my involvement with ASDaze out of context then you can easily say I've bashed on Jung Ah, Juyeon, UEE, Raina Kauen AND NANA(who I'm actually defending). But if you are going to try that, you're not going to get very far. I've known what UEE is like long before getting involve with this forum and ASDaze. If I wanted to make UEE look bad just for the sake of making another member look good don't you think I could have don't that ages ago. When UEE bias fans were attacking Nana at https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=7Y7s5Q91Zzg if I really wanted to make UEE look bad and Nana look good wouldn't I have done it there.

In case you've missed it, my purpose of mentioning UEE's negative qualities was to put things into perspective because it's obvious this fandom don't know what narcissism is. Compare and contrast, that's what I'm doing. Also I'm making a point here that most fans (and consider that UEE fans make up a majority of this fandom) don't know what they're talking about. UEE bias fans also happen to be a major contributor to Nana's h8 so this servers to shut them up very well. Do you really think I want to mention those things about UEE right here and right now. Do you really think I like being hated(well, at least Nana knows how I feel). I need you guys to support me in my plans help After School. Do you think I'll risk After School's success just to make Nana look better. Right now I'm in a very awkward/difficult position and this position I had planned to avoid to ensure the success of After School. But the universe seems to have a way with messing up my plans.

wowous wrote:It's hurtful to some of their fans and it doesn't sound so good on you either.

I'll like to have friends but unfortunately making friends is the least of my concerns in this fandom. I'm here for After School first and foremost and nothing else. The way I see it is that it's ASDaze's job to make this fandom fun. It's my job to talk some sense into this messed up fandom until someone else is willing to take over. About the butt hurting, see my last post at https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t220-rules-for-discussions. Sometimes to appreciate people you need to see and remember the good in them when you know there's bad. Maybe the bad points aren't as bad as you initially thought it just that they look extra bad because you never knew they existed before. Maybe you need some time away from them to clear your mind and to properly assess the situation if you are really troubled by it....maybe I should of just shut up. I haven't slept all night so god knows if half the things I've said make sense...I'm trying.

wowous wrote:As a fan of Uee, this made me feel a little awkward and oppressed.

I'm sorry, my apology extents to every other UEE fan that's not a Nana hater as well. I think I need to reassess whether what I've done is the best idea...

wowous wrote:Nana has been the subject to harsh comments pretty much after she got the whole 2nd most beautiful title thing

Nana was subject to hash comments long before that as well. The comments I've used to demonstrate UEE bias fans are notorious for voicing their h8 for Nana all happened before the world #2 title thing. It's just that Nana is more in the lime light now so more h8 is surfacing. Remember the posts I've wrote at https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t342-discussion-selfish-fans-damaging-after-school-s-success, this situation that Nana is in is what it's about.

(First all I want to apologize for my English is not a language that I can speak well. Normally I speak French or Dutch).
"I AM NOT A HATER"  
I'm not a hater, but I'm not a fan of Nana but I do not love her (the world is not black or white, there are also gray). I gave my opinion Honestly what I think of this situation (it can hurt because I'm talking about your bias but everyone has the right to think what he wants if he expresses his opinion without insulting the "bias" and that's what I did).
I "suggested" Nana limit all behavior against him and have it calm down a bit.
indeed Nana had a cold frame (not in the sense she is evil but more like ice princess who not talk much) and the hater have associated this with her ​​past "ILJIN" and (they categorized "cold as arrogant and offender ").
and since 2014 Nana participates in many varieties and show people see her personality is a "shock" because it is not what they thought of her "cold, delinquent, arrogant."
it comes with 4D personality, funny, very underpad with the elders and the people since it is not the personality they imagined, they are all categorized she made ​​"fake".
Because of a series Uee is been categorized as "Bitch"  during much time until 2012 with her ​​drama OB and there are always people who do not like it because of the drama because they all think it is a bitch like her character.  
for people to enjoy it more and realize that it is her real personality should she introduced gradually.
  (I want to say that this is a courtesy that I answer but I am not obliged to justify if yes or no I'm a hater. (personally I do not think she is fake "I've never said word "fake Nana" in any of my comments, "but we are not medium nobody can know if this idol is fake or not.)
although I am a fan of the extreme Uee   I know a lot of criticism that is of uee are for 3/4 true and I accept as it is constructive and it is said without insult .
This is not always the fan of Uee criticizing Nana "believe me" must stop generalizing. Many international and little Korean fan also insulted uee lousy "visual false" it should give way to Nana that she has nothing to do in the group and many other insults mainly (allkpop forum , asian junki, antikpop fangirl, etc) but I have not opened a discution provided.
we all have a bias in after school but we all love the group.
We must support each fan of afterschool because unfortunately because of Pledis   girls have lost a lot of fan "the era of the dive, Because of You, Bang was memorable"  
  Do not fight between fan because someone said something disturbing.   

oops the second pic was verry big hahah

ueeshi wrote:(First all I want to apologize for my English is not a language that I can speak well. Normally I speak French or Dutch).

@ueeshi, Cool!

ueeshi wrote:I gave my opinion Honestly what I think of this situation (it can hurt because I'm talking about your bias but everyone has the right to think what he wants if he expresses his opinion without insulting the "bias" and that's what I did)

@ueeshi, It's just that your opinions look like insults frequently used by Nana haters. You also need to be aware that you have the rights to think what you want but other people also have the rights to think what they want and correct you if they think you are wrong.

ueeshi wrote:I want to say that this is a courtesy that I answer but I am not obliged to justify if yes or no I'm a hater

@ueeshi, I appreciate you replying and you are right, you are not obliged to justify if you are a hater or not. But I need you to stop saying stuff like

ueeshi wrote:.....don't be disrespect with the elders

and

ueeshi wrote:NaNA to a lot of awkwardness (4minute, disrespect for elders, the thing with CL, disrespect with the comedian, the narcissism with its title of second most beautiful face with all the pictures of her hung everywhere)

@ueeshi, ^because none of that is true. There are BlackJacks that have taken interest in Nana and I'm hoping those Jack would be interested enough to become fans. Nana is a really nice girl and she does deserve more than she's recieved. It'll help out if you didn't spread these lies about Nana. I know you are entitled to you opinion and like I've said I'm entitled to give my opinion about your opinion i.e. correct you because it is wrong. Since you are not a Nana hater, I trust that you won't be saying these negative things about her anymore because they are incorrect. If you still think those negative things are correct then lets continue to discuss it.

ueeshi wrote:although I am a fan of the extreme Uee    I know a lot of criticism that is of uee are for 3/4 true and I accept as it is constructive and it is said without insult .

@ueeshi, Oh thank goodness ...so can I assumes there's no hard feelings...regarding the things I've said about UEE.

ueeshi wrote:This is not always the fan of Uee criticizing Nana "believe me" must stop generalizing.

@ueeshi, I know it is not always UEE fans hating on Nana and I never generalized it as such. What I said was UEE fans are notorious for voicing their h8 for Nana...notorious means famous for doing something bad but it does not mean only UEE fans are hating on Nana. Although most of the time it is UEE fans that are the ones hating on Nana from my observations.
(btw, I write h8 instead of h a t e because this forum will turn it into love if you remove the spaces from h a t e)

ueeshi wrote:Do not fight between fan because someone said something disturbing.

@ueeshi, I don't consider what I do fighting...I consider it discussing.

LOL @1:28


Guys, I know some of the stuff I've said about UEE is going to come as a shocker to you. I want you guys to consider this, Jo Se Ho is narcissistic, you can tell he is because of that giant picture of himself in the Roommate living room but no h8 comes to him. Seo In-Young is a b*tch especially to Kahi in Heros but she is more popular than Kahi. Do you know why is that? It's because tir fans can see the good that's in them and appreciate that instead of focus on the bad...if you don't understand that now I hope you'll do so in the future. Well at least it's good to know ueeshi seems understands it.

when I said that the "3/4" strictest of reviews I was referring to his abilities in singing and make varieties show except when it is in sports like "barefoot friend".
But Uee is in no way "narcissistic", she has always taken care of others and is very respectful.
she cries because she easily attaches to people quickly.



Uee has always supported the orange caramel visiting them often visit their promotion and that the other member did not.
but nobody comes to see her when she filmed a drama apart Minhuyn.
Kahi criticized on the radio star, Lizzy said she had a better body than Uee "joke of century" and she saw Uee naked and body is not very pretty on Quiz to change the world, says Raina Uee takes all the atention and all cameras "as if Uee had chose she should complain Pledis rather than uee is immortal song."
she takes care of Kaeun and Eyoung "more kaeun is true" and old caramel aka jungha Jooyeon and are very good friends with her, "you can see on beauty bible".






photos of her in her house it is her mother who exposed all the photos and "that is her house" it's private "so she can put whatever she desires and the show visited the house of Uee to unexpectedly so it is not something she prepared.) She also said in strong heart that her mother did all that and it was embarrassing. so it's not Uee That is her mother. Long before She Does barefoot friend.



when she said she was pretty without makeup "hell yes" she fucking pretty without make up (and this is one of the few idol who is prettier without makeup than with makeup "makeup artist he does not know a face makeup Round ") so they told him to answer Honestly it is she did.

you say jo seho is "narcissistic" and then narcissism is not a default "would you he is super shy and he lack of confidence." I think if narcissism is part of your nature ben that's life and if people do not like you either explain to them that they are wrong or you move on.
Nana is in my opinion a narcissistic person and good for her it is not a crime (she post a lot of pictures of her, she brings her big posters safe "sbs roomatte" when it is a group photo, she is the only who takes PAUSE to put her body in value).


she has the right to be what she wants as I have the right to say what want and you also the right not to agree with me.

ueeshi wrote:when I said that the "3/4" strictest of reviews I was referring to his abilities in singing and make varieties show except when it is in sports like "barefoot friend".

@ueeshi, I see...OK, misunderstanding cleared.

ueeshi wrote:But Uee is in no way "narcissistic", she has always taken care of others and is very respectful.
she cries because she easily attaches to people quickly.

You've once said that you think you are a logical fan...the logical approach to refute my argument that UEE is "narcissistic" would be to demonstrate how my evidence against UEE is invalid instead of just claiming UEE is not narcissistic and telling me she takes care of other people and easily attaches to people.

Narcissistic means "having or showing an excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance", Telling me UEE takes care of other people and easily attaches to people does not disproved she is narcissistic. People can be narcissistic and takes care of other people and easily attaches to people.

ueeshi wrote:Kahi criticized on the radio star

When did Kahi criticized UEE on Radio Star...you're not talking about when Kahi mentioned OC popularity rising and it might surpass UEE's popularity are you? Because that wasn't a criticism.

ueeshi wrote:says Raina Uee takes all the atention and all cameras "as if Uee had chose she should complain Pledis rather than uee is immortal song."

Raina never said that. What Raina said was she can sing till she feels like coughing up blood but the camera is always on UEE. Raina wasn't complaining to UEE on immortal song. Raina was telling viewers how frustrated she was at the situation. Raina did nothing wrong and didn't deserve the h8 she got from that. But if you are one of the fans that was complaining about Raina then you are in the wrong.

ueeshi wrote:photos of her in her house it is her mother who exposed all the photos and "that is her house" it's private "so she can put whatever she desires and the show visited the house of Uee to unexpectedly so it is not something she prepared.) She also said in strong heart that her mother did all that and it was embarrassing. so it's not Uee That is her mother. Long before She Does barefoot friend.

Hmm...I'm not sure I understand what you mean. But are you replying to when I said UEE has a giant picture of herself painted to her living room wall? Those strong heart pictures are pointless to me because I can't read Korean, I need English subs. Also that point I made about UEE having a giant picture of herself in her living room isn't really a good point because, 1) I don't have an actual reference to it yet so for all you know it might not even exist..unless you can actually find it, 2) having a giant picture of yourself doesn't necessarily mean you are narcissistic is just a indication of narcissism to back up the other points 3) I've pretty much assume that it was UEE's idea to out it there which I have no evidence for, it's just that since it's her living room, I assume that it was her idea to put it there.

ueeshi wrote:when she said she was pretty without makeup "hell yes" she fucking pretty without make up (and this is one of the few idol who is prettier without makeup than with makeup "makeup artist he does not know a face makeup Round ") so they told him to answer Honestly it is she did.

OK, I understand you but I'm not sure what that has anything to do with refuting my argument about UEE's narcissism...or are you talking about something else? Which time are you talking about when she said she was pretty without makeup? Who told UEE to answer honestly?

ueeshi wrote:you say jo seho is "narcissistic" and then narcissism is not a default "would you he is super shy and he lack of confidence." I think if narcissism is part of your nature ben that's life and if people do not like you either explain to them that they are wrong or you move on.

Yes, I did say that Se Ho is narcissistic but I didn't say narcissism is not a default "would you he is super shy and he lack of confidence.". I don't understand your first sentence.

ueeshi wrote:Nana is in my opinion a narcissistic person and good for her it is not a crime (she post a lot of pictures of her, she brings her big posters safe "sbs roomatte" when it is a group photo, she is the only who takes PAUSE to put her body in value).

How much pictures do you consider to be a lot? I've only managed to count 4 picture Nana brought to Roommate and I don't consider 4 to be a lot. Also if someone has a lot of pictures of themselves hung on walls, it does not necessarily mean they are narcissistic, it might be an indication they are narcissistic but by it's self it doesn't mean they are narcissistic. You need other evidence to back it up like if they are looking at their pictures very frequently or trying to get other people to look at their pictures to see how beautiful they are. I'm not sure what --> she brings her big posters safe "sbs roomatte" means. That pose Nana does in that picture doesn't mean Nana is narcissistic. Firstly, Nana is a model so a model poses coming from her is expected. Secondly, anyone would want to look good while they are getting their pictures taken, posing well looks good in pictures that's why using someone's pose in front of a camera is not a very good way to justified someone's narcissism.

I don’t think Uee is narcissistic at all, in fact I think that word is being thrown around a little too much and getting off topic, I also don’t think Nana could be called that either.
Personally I would imagine that any entertainer would have to be a little narcissistic by default just to do what they do but that doesn’t in itself imply that they are narcissistic themselves.

I also have seen no evidence that either Nana or Uee is self-centred or egotistical, actually quite the opposite, both have displayed quite abundantly that they are both caring and considerate individuals.

If there are people out there hating on Nana for being a friendly warm and caring person then that’s just sad but you can’t make people like her if they have it in their mind not to.

intrepid wrote:I also have seen no evidence that either Nana or Uee is self-centred or egotistical, actually quite the opposite, both have displayed quite abundantly that they are both caring and considerate individuals.

Have you seen the evidence I provided for UEE's narcissism in the first post of this thread or have I failed to justify how they demonstrates UEE's narcissism?

intrepid wrote:actually quite the opposite, both have displayed quite abundantly that they are both caring and considerate individuals.

I can easily demonstrate UEE's selflessness as well but just because UEE's is selfless in certain regards does not mean UEE is always selfless. I consider the act of moving E-young away from the centre of the stage just so UEE can be in E-yongs spot, selfish (maybe E-young really likes that spot and UEE should of asked first) and narcissistic. The basic definition of narcissistic is loving the way you look a little too much. That way UEE tries to be in front of the camera like that to show off her looks is narcissistic. Just because someone is caring and considerate does not mean they are not narcissistic. Here's another example, Jo Se Ho is definitely caring and considerate, especially towards Nana and he certainly is narcissistic. He has that big picture of himself in the Roommate living room for everyone to see. Even through the arguments and complaints by the other room mates for him to remove it he continues to fight to have it there...I'm sure if you have that much pride in your looks that you have to show off your picture off like that then that is narcissism.

I think you are seeing something in this that I’m not, there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation why Uee changed places with E-Young and just because we don’t know it doesn’t mean it’s what you think it means.

I will also point out this micromanaging of perceived misdemeanours is exactly the trap you made this thread to avoid in Nana’s case, just because you think you see some small injustice by a member of After School against another doesn’t mean there “actually” was one.
For all we know they were told by their managers to be in a certain order on stage and E-Young forgot or perhaps Uee moved E-Young closer to the interrupter because E-Young isn’t as fluent in Chinese and it would be easier for her to consult, we don’t know so we shouldn’t jump to conclusions.

You may not mean it but you are finding fault in Uee in the same way people are finding fault in Nana which is something we should all avoid.

You open a discussion that we stop "hating" on Nana but you do not stop to treaty Uee "narcissistic, selfish."   
Nana is more narcissistic than Uee "She think she very beautifull and she show it"   
for me being narcissistic is not a default.
everybody in world is a bit narcissistic, even Uee   
Uee is so beautiful and it is also model. she does a lot more coverage than Nana and she also has runway with Ren nues't but she did not bring her picture in a show Varieties.
Boom is the super star of "roomatte" but she also did not brings posting of her.
With Eyoung it was not the selfishness   (Uee takes care of Eyoung more than Nana)   Nana is often cold with Eyoung. Many people say on (alkpop ...) and Nana preoccupied only with (Lizzy, kahi, maybe raina).
Eyoung has much more talent than Nana and Uee for idol.   Uee has the talent to be a very good actress.
you are a paradox you want we stop critical nana but you don 't stopped insulting Uee. "Yes insulted" because selfish for me it is an insult.   
It is always on uee "The word hater you well defined at this time".  

intrepid wrote:there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation why Uee changed places with E-Young and just because we don’t know it doesn’t mean it’s what you think it means.

@intrepid, I'm aware of that. However unless you find that perfectly reasonable explanation for why UEE took E-young's spot my argument remains valid as you still haven't invalidated it yet. Is it absolutely true or not is another question. We determine whether something is true or not with the information that we are provided. What we know to be true at one point might become false at another. I don't think I'll know the absolute truth but the information I have right now indicates it is true that UEE's actions in that video demonstrate narcissism and I make my decisions base on the truth given by the information I currently have(only if I have sufficient info).

@intrepid, I think that Star Date interview video demonstrates UEE's narcissism more than any of the other evidences so let's discuss that. Nana asks UEE "Do you think you are really pretty" and when UEE tries to reply she chokes on her words. That question must be very burdensome and stressful for her to answer. At 3:26 UEE says "I look at myself and I think I look good", they laughs at this and the scene get replayed as well to emphasise it. So guys, what's the joke(i.e. why did they laugh)? My interpretation was that the way UEE acted was narcissistic and that's why it was funny.

intrepid wrote:You may not mean it but you are finding fault in Uee in the same way people are finding fault in Nana which is something we should all avoid.

@intrepid, The faults I find in UEE are from reasoning. The faults people find in Nana are from their inability to reason, my first post in this tread demonstrates this.

A major difference between me and a lot of people is that I provide evidence and references to show what my arguments are based on so reader can judge for themselves the validity of my arguments.

I know my reasoning doesn't guarantee the things I say are always going to be 100% correct. Even if I do ever claim to be 100% certain of something...that's just me misspeaking because the truth is that I'm not 100% certain of anything and I doubt anything else can be 100% certain of anything as well.

ueeshi wrote:You open a discussion that we stop "hating" on Nana but you do not stop to treaty Uee "narcissistic, selfish."   

@ueeshi, This is a discussion and we are discussing whether it is true UEE is narcissistic and selfish. Just like how I encouraged you to discuss the negative things about you've said about Nana if you continued to believe they are correct so we can determine if your negative opinions about Nana are true of not and if they are not true don't spread lies about Nana.

ueeshi wrote:Nana is more narcissistic than Uee "She think she very beautifull and she show it"

@ueeshi, Thinking you are beautiful and showing it does not mean you are narcissistic...I don't think you understand what narcissistic means.

ueeshi wrote: for me being narcissistic is not a default

@ueeshi, Sorry I'm not sure what that means.

ueeshi wrote:everybody in world is a bit narcissistic, even Uee   

@ueeshi, I agree everyone in the world is a bit narcissistic.

ueeshi wrote:
Uee is so beautiful and it is also model. she does a lot more coverage than Nana and she also has runway with Ren nues't but she did not bring her picture in a show Varieties.
Boom is the super star of "roomatte" but she also did not brings posting of her.

@ueeshi, Again, I don't think you understand what narcissism is. Bringing your picture or poster to variety shows does not make you narcissistic. However if you frequently look at your pictures because you think you are so beautiful or if you try to get other people to frequently look at you pictures to see how beautiful you are then you are narcissistic...in the normal use of the world.

ueeshi wrote:With Eyoung it was not the selfishness     (Uee takes care of Eyoung more than Nana)  

@ueeshi, Just because UEE takes care of E-young for some things does not mean UEE isn't selfish towards E-young for other things. Also when and how has UEE taken care of E-young?

ueeshi wrote:Nana is often cold with Eyoung. Many people say on (alkpop ...) and Nana preoccupied only with (Lizzy, kahi, maybe raina).

@ueeshi, The words of other people hold no credibility unless you prove they are correct..wait what does Nana being cold with E-young have anything to do with this...please don't tell me you're trying to compare Nana are E-young's relationship with UEE taking E-young's spot in that video.

ueeshi wrote:
@ueeshi, you are a paradox you want we stop critical nana but you don 't stopped insulting Uee. "Yes insulted" because selfish for me it is an insult.    

You've misunderstood. What I want is discussion with you to determine whether your arguments against Nana are valid or not and I trust when you find that you arguments against Nana hold no validity you'll stop spreading the lies about Nana...how would I discuss about UEE's selfishness if I don't use the word selfish...actually I'm not that interest in discussing UEE's selfishness so lets just stick to narcissism.

ueeshi wrote: It is always on uee "The word hater you @ueeshi, well defined at this time".      

Sorry I don't know what this means.

nobody discusses anything it is you who crafted a debating because someone says something that displeases you to your "Nana".
what I have said clearly shows that narcissistic mean.
all members have said in interviews that China Raina and Nana was the second most "narcissistic" because it often looked in the mirror.
You do not speak any other members of after school but just Uee.
You persist moved on and what I think of Nana is very clear (narcissistic, beautiful, awkward but not fake) I not love but you all made ​​for people feels like a hater. (you Ellez even insulted the bias of the other selfish and narcissistic like (imbued with itself))
But sorry I do not feel Hater I think it is you who are a fan Delulu.

ueeshi wrote:nobody discusses anything it is you who crafted a debating because someone says something that displeases you to your "Nana".

@ueeshi, There's practically no differences between discussions and debates, read my last post at https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t220-rules-for-discussions for an explanation

ueeshi wrote:what I have said clearly shows that narcissistic mean.

@ueeshi again here's what the definition for narcissistic  is "having or showing an excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance". You still haven't provided anything to show that Nana is narcissistic and when you do try, I explain to you why your arguments are invalid but you don't reply to my rebuttals.

ueeshi wrote:all members have said in interviews that China Raina and Nana was the second most "narcissistic" because it often looked in the mirror.

@ueeshi, I don't remember in any interview where the AS members say another AS member is narcissist. Give me a link to the interview you are talking about. Also looking at the mirror frequently is an indication of narcissism, that alone isn't sufficient to prove someone is narcissist.

ueeshi wrote:You do not speak any other members of after school but just Uee.

@ueeshi, If you are saying I only talk negatively about UEE in this discussion than yes it is true, because there no need for me talking negatively about any other members to show UEE is narcissistic. But I do talk negatively about other members in other discussion like Jung Ah in this one discussion https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t138-discussion-do-fans-have-proof-kahi-is-guilty-of-being-a-selfish-line-hogger-on-a-power-trip . You say you are a logical thinker but your arguments are not logical. For example, your talks about Raina is irrelevant to this topic because Raina has no affects on whether UEE and Nana are narcissistic or not...I don't mind discussing about Raina but I really should be discouraging you because you are getting off the topic.

ueeshi wrote:You persist moved on and what I think of Nana is very clear (narcissistic, beautiful, awkward but not fake) I not love but you all made ​​for people feels like a hater. (you Ellez even insulted the bias of the other selfish and narcissistic like (imbued with itself))

@ueeshi, I don't understand most of the things you've said in that sentence...but you know you are not obligated to join this discussion right? I'm encouraging you to join because it concerns me you are spreading lies about Nana. Honestly your opinion about Nana being narcissistic in general is not that important to me, I was more concerned about the other negative stuff you said about Nana. Have I managed to show you that you are wrong about Nana disrespecting elders, disrespecting Jo Se Ho, the 4 minute thing and the CL thing yet?

@ueeshi, in case you have forgotten your original argument was that Nana is narcissistic with the world #2 title not Nana is narcissistic in general. Read http://asdaze.com/?p=79490 if you really have forgotten. Have I managed to show you that you are wrong about Nana being narcissistic with the world #2 title yet? If you still think Nana was being narcissistic with the world #2 title then lets continue to discuss that before discussing whether or not Nana is generally narcissistic.

ueeshi wrote:But sorry I do not feel Hater I think it is you who are a fan Delulu.

@ueeshi, For every argument you make I keeping refuting them but you keep avoiding my rebuttals. You bring up other AS member who are irrelevant to the discussion and the evidences you provided to try to justify your claims are very poor, your evidence either have no irrelevance to the discussion or are not referenced so I can't check their validity. Your arguments against Nana show that you either don't understand what narcissistic means or you don't understand what constitutes to a valid argument. I've provided evidences for UEE's narcissism in my first post in this discussion but you've done nothing to refute them. Telling me how caring and great UEE is or how narcissistic another member is irrelevant to disproving the evidence I've provided and the rationality you've demonstrated in your arguments shows that you are not a logical thinker.

From what I've seen, you think Nana is narcissistic because you want to think she is narcissistic. Just look at the way you keep claiming that Nana has lots of pictures of herself hug everywhere when I've shown that she only has 4 pictures of herself and they are all located within the vicinity of her room. You think UEE is not narcissistic because you want to believe she is not narcissistic, I've provided evidences to demonstrate UEE's narcissism but you've pretty much just avoided them.

Here's what the definition for delusion is,

"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary."

@ueeshi, you are the one that is deluded not me.

go to other things I stop there because you do not stop with your stubbornness.
my final thought will be (Nana was awkward and narcissistic in "roomatte" that's why she took all the criticism.) My thought of Nana remains the same as the one I had at the beginning of "scandal" .
If you thought "Uee is narcissistic," good for you (for me she is one of the few true idol of kpop).
goodbye

PlayboyzAdam wrote:@intrepid, I'm aware of that. However unless you find that perfectly reasonable explanation for why UEE took E-young's spot my argument remains valid as you still haven't invalidated it yet. Is it absolutely true or not is another question. We determine whether something is true or not with the information that we are provided. What we know to be true at one point might become false at another. I don't think I'll know the absolute truth but the information I have right now indicates it is true that UEE's actions in that video demonstrate narcissism and I make my decisions base on the truth given by the information I currently have(only if I have sufficient info).

I have seen this video when it first came out and honestly I didn’t read anything into Uee’s actions then and after reviewing it I still don’t see anything there of any concern now, but to answer your question and invalidate your argument let me point out had Uee truly narcissistic tendencies she wouldn’t have traded places with E-Young she would have traded places with Kaeun as that would have been the most important place she could occupy as the second most senior representative standing next to Jung-ah for the interview not “centre stage” which is a performance position and hardly that important given that there was only four of them and she would have been sharing “centre stage” with someone else which a narcissistic person wouldn’t abide.

The thing I find most troubling in this discussion is that you seem to be attacking Uee whether intentionally or not to justify defending Nana’s position. I think this is unnecessary and your “proof” is no more valid than that brought forward by the people who attacked Kahi and Nana in the same way using the same methods, it’s all a matter of personal interpretation so why immediately go for the negative?

As fans of After School we should “all” support all its members "equally" and not just our bias and also keep in mind that what hurts the image of one hurts the image of all. (T-ara bullying scandal anyone?) My advice @PlayboyzAdam is to keep attacking injustices directed at our girls just don’t use the other members as justification for it because I’m quite sure those same members think more highly of each other than what I’ve read so far by so called fans.

intrepid wrote:let me point out had Uee truly narcissistic tendencies she wouldn’t have traded places with E-Young she would have traded places with Kaeun as that would have been the most important place she could occupy as the second most senior representative standing next to Jung-ah for the interview not “centre stage” which is a performance position and hardly that important given that there was only four of them and she would have been sharing “centre stage” with someone else which a narcissistic person wouldn’t abide.

You have not invalidate my argument yet. Here are the problems with your statement. You have not explained how that position is important to UEE/anyone or why is it important to stand next to Jung Ah. I'm guessing that you're trying to relate importance to seniority...not that it matters because what you've done is state that someone who is narcissistic would want to be in such a position without demonstrating that to be true.

From what you've said, I don't think you understand how taking E-young's position demonstrates narcissism. Both Kaeun and E-young held centre positions in terms of how they stood as a group. Human have a tendency to pay more attention to the centre of things,

http://gazehawk.com/blog/where-do-users-look-first/ wrote:Notice that people overwhelmingly start in the middle of the screen. This is a common finding in eye-tracking: when presented with a stimulus, people spend a third of a second staring at the middle of it before reacting [2]

...I thought that this was an intuitively understood fact and that didn't need explaining.

If UEE had narcissistic tendencies then she would have taken either Kaeun or E-young's position because people will see her more so she can show off her looks more.

My arguments of UEE's narcissism are about how she thinks of her physical appearance(as indicated by that Star Date interview) NOT how important she thinks she is.

intrepid wrote:The thing I find most troubling in this discussion is that you seem to be attacking Uee whether intentionally or not to justify defending Nana’s position.

...You've misunderstood or you haven't been paying attention to my other posts, I'm not defending Nana by mentioning UEE's narcissism. People don't know what narcissism is so I'm setting things straight(putting things in perspective was how I first said it I think). I teaching through a process of compare and contrast. Also in case you've missed it, in one of my replies to wowous I mentioned that this serves to shut them up UEE bias fans hating on Nana as they are the biggest contributor to hating on Nana in this fandom from what I've seen....am I attacking UEE?...I'm acting no different from when I argued that Jung Ah sucks as a leader so was I attacking Jung Ah as well?... Call it whatever you like but I consider it educating you guys.

intrepid wrote:I think this is unnecessary and your “proof” is no more valid than that brought forward by the people who attacked Kahi and Nana in the same way using the same methods, it’s all a matter of personal interpretation so why immediately go for the negative?

Considering I've already disproved the claims made by people saying that Nana was narcissistic about that world #2 title, to say that my “proof” is no more valid than that brought forward by the people who attacked Kahi and Nana , means you have to disprove all the evidence I have for UEE's narcissism for your claim to be true. I didn't just go for all the negatives, the negatives happen to be a common factor in the various evidence I've presented. Right now you are only talking about that UEE taking E-young's spot video. That video alone doesn't prove anything and that's why I presented other evidence to back it up.

intrepid wrote:As fans of After School we should “all” support all its members "equally" and not just our bias....

LOL Firstly, considering that I'm Kahi and Nana bias..that's pretty hard to do the but I do try very very hard...look at the A Midsummer Night's Sweetness promotion, who was the one that formally propose to ASDaze that we support it as we would for any AS promotion, do a search to the hash tags #레이나 and #한여름밤의꿀 on twitter and let me know who tweeted the most for SNS points, I've already shown that I've defended UEE as I would any other AS member and After School so I don't see what's your problem. LOL, I doubt you can say you support all AS members equally. If everyone support all members equally then there will be no point in that After School Survivor game. What you don't seem to understand is that I'll speak negatively of my biases as I would for any other AS member. Look my first post in the Nana thread, LOL I actually said I agree with UEE on how Nana looks without makeup. But I always find the positives in people when there are negatives.

intrepid wrote:....and also keep in mind that what hurts the image of one hurts the image of all.

....Jo Se Ho is narcissistic, does his image hurt the image of the other Roommates? Seo In-Young is a b*tch in Heroes, especially towards Kahi, does her image hurt the image or the other Heroes guys?

intrepid wrote:(T-ara bullying scandal anyone?)

What about the T-ara bullying scandal?

intrepid wrote:because I’m quite sure those same members think more highly of each other than what I’ve read so far by so called fans.

Considering the extent of your knowledge and ability to reason you've shown, I advice you to be open to the idea that they might not think as highly of each other as you or other people think. Consider what Kahi said in that Beatles Code 3D interview about After School regarding outcasts and consider this extract from @milkiwism (source Asiatoday),

“We also have been through some internal conflicts and objections from fans. But everything would be resolved if you had confident and strong willed.”

I advice you to ask yourself how much do you really know about After School or UEE.

Take note of UEE pointing at herself after E-young gets asked about who is in charge of discipline and who in E-young's heart always gets mad at E-young. UEE knows its her.



After that ^ E-young eyes UEE instead of saying her Name. E-young too sacred of UEE to say her Name? Take note of the way UEE responds i.e. the blinking, her mouth and her head gesture as she says "Me?", that looks very much like an oppression technique that UEE is using on E-young.


After that E-young seems to act submissive i.e. she avoids eye contact with UEE and she never tells the audience what UEE told her to take note of when E-young first joined...although if you read https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t340-discussion-kahi-is-a-strict-leader you get a pretty good idea of what UEE told E-young. The look in E-young's eye's seems to indicates that E-young is being very careful about what to say.


Some of you guys may not to see it, but there's been plenty of indications throughout these years that UEE has always been a problem. UEE's selfishness can easily be seen by how she wants that seniority discipline enforced as it benefits her and as indicated by this extract of a Sports Seoul interview, it's been causing problems.

Sports Seoul wrote:There’s a rule for senior-junior in the group, so there was a misunderstanding. I hope there’ll be no disharmony between us and we can last forever.

UEE may want those seniority rules in place, looks like Raina and the rest of the younger members think they're rubbish.


To those fans that are concerned about this ending up as a T-ara bulling scandal. Try to practice a bit more rationality. The T-ara bulling scandal happened because a member was accused of being bullied, T-ara members did a crap job handling the situation and so did their company. This is a case of UEE being selfish and causing problems. It would appear that After School handled the situation fine.

I seriously do not have the time for this any more so this will be my last post for a while on this topic.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:

intrepid wrote:let me point out had Uee truly narcissistic tendencies she wouldn’t have traded places with E-Young she would have traded places with Kaeun as that would have been the most important place she could occupy as the second most senior representative standing next to Jung-ah for the interview not “centre stage” which is a performance position and hardly that important given that there was only four of them and she would have been sharing “centre stage” with someone else which a narcissistic person wouldn’t abide.

You have not invalidate my argument yet. Here are the problems with your statement. You have not explained how that position is important to UEE/anyone or why is it important to stand next to Jung Ah. I'm guessing that you're trying to relate importance to seniority...not that it matters because what you've done is state that someone who is narcissistic would want to be in such a position without demonstrating that to be true.

From what you've said, I don't think you understand how taking E-young's position demonstrates narcissism. Both Kaeun and E-young held centre positions in terms of how they stood as a group. Human have a tendency to pay more attention to the centre of things,

http://gazehawk.com/blog/where-do-users-look-first/ wrote:Notice that people overwhelmingly start in the middle of the screen. This is a common finding in eye-tracking: when presented with a stimulus, people spend a third of a second staring at the middle of it before reacting [2]

...I thought that this was an intuitively understood fact and that didn't need explaining.

If UEE had narcissistic tendencies then she would have taken either Kaeun or E-young's position because people will see her more so she can show off her looks more.

My arguments of UEE's narcissism are about how she thinks of her physical appearance(as indicated by that Star Date interview) NOT how important she thinks she is.

I determined the truth of my statement by what I judge to be traits Uee has displayed in the past and the most obvious one is her adherence to Korean cultural norms, so you guessed right (not that I was trying to be obtuse about it) I was referring to the importance of seniority.
Had Uee wanted to be “at the centre of things” by being narcissistic she wouldn’t just change places with E-young she would have gone as far as she possibly could to be self-important both in physical location and in cultural behaviour to achieve that.
While being at the centre is where people look first that isn’t where people “always look,” they are also drawn to where the action is taking place which is where the interviewer is far left.
Given that Kaeun was by your own acknowledgement as much centre as E-young so interchangeable, then given a choice to be “centre stage” a “Narcissistic Uee” would want that position to be as close to the interviewer as possible and to be as close to the action as possible and standing next to Jung-ah would also fulfil a cultural self-important position.
Narcissistic people are not self-aware of what they are doing so don’t do things half measure, they go as far as humanly possible to achieve their own self-aggrandizement.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:

intrepid wrote:The thing I find most troubling in this discussion is that you seem to be attacking Uee whether intentionally or not to justify defending Nana’s position.

...You've misunderstood or you haven't been paying attention to my other posts, I'm not defending Nana by mentioning UEE's narcissism. People don't know what narcissism is so I'm setting things straight(putting things in perspective was how I first said it I think). I teaching through a process of compare and contrast. Also in case you've missed it, in one of my replies to wowous I mentioned that this serves to shut them up UEE bias fans hating on Nana as they are the biggest contributor to hating on Nana in this fandom from what I've seen....am I attacking UEE?...I'm acting no different from when I argued that Jung Ah sucks as a leader so was I attacking Jung Ah as well?... Call it whatever you like but I consider it educating you guys.

Mentioning Jung-ah sucking as leader isn’t attacking her since she acknowledges as much and the other members have also said as much, stating a fact isn’t attacking someone however taking a stance based on an unconfirmed allegation or suspicion without real proof but based on an opinion is attacking them.
You say Uee is narcissistic and have put forward “proof” of this and said “I am right look at my evidence prove me wrong.” The problem I’m having with this is it’s entirely cherry-picked to support what I can only describe as wish fulfilment, you seem so convinced that Uee is this way you dare people to prove you wrong. I could use this same method to do the same of any member if I wanted to but what would be the point, I could has also do a point by point example of Uee not displaying narcissistic tendencies or should I say behaviour that would be inconsistent with a narcissistic personality but trolling the internet for them is just too tiring because I think we would just get into a video showdown and be arguing this forever.

But I will point out if Uee was truly a narcissist she would display “all” the quantities of being one not just “some” of them, and an important trait that narcissistic people lack is empathy, something Uee has amply displayed she has on many occasions.
I also think “people” do understand what narcissism is, or at the very least I do, however you don’t seem to know as much as you seem to think you do on this subject, if you did we wouldn’t be having this conversation, you can’t just diagnose someone with something like this by showing a few instances and still have just as many other instances where she acts the completely opposite or not to type.
She either is or isn’t narcissistic she can’t be both and because she has constantly displayed traits not consistent with being narcissistic that in itself proves she isn’t, you can’t have it both ways because it simply doesn’t work that way with narcissistic people, they are simply not self-aware enough to be so inconsistent with their behaviour.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:

intrepid wrote:....and also keep in mind that what hurts the image of one hurts the image of all.

....Jo Se Ho is nacissistic, does his image hurt the image of the other Roommates? Seo In-Young is a b*tch in Heroes, especially towards Kahi, does her image hurt the image or the other Heroes guys?

I meant within the group in real life where the popularity of the group can suffer from the misdemeanours of one person real or imagined.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:

intrepid wrote:(T-ara bullying scandal anyone?)

What about the T-ara bullying scandal?

This was part of above quote and referred to the well-publicised scandal which hurt T-ara’s image so much they lost endorsements, popularity, and had to cancel events until it was sorted out.
While I won’t get into the validity of any of the claims because I’m not in a position to say what’s true and what’s not and until someone directly involve actually says something about it I won’t comment directly, however, what I do want show is that videos like the one I’ll post bellow became common as well as posts on forums like this and it was really damaging to T-ara’s reputation.
I’m doing this to show how infighting within a fandom can be just as damaging as anything outside of it and attacking an individual member can also create problems that can eventually explode into a highly damaging situation affecting all the members equally.

I love this post omg it addresses everything. Can I quote or link this on other forums when I find Nana haters?? <3

Nana&Kaeun4lyfe wrote:I love this post omg it addresses everything. Can I quote or link this on other forums when I find Nana haters?? <3

@Nana&Kaeun4lyfe Yes, please help spread this

@intrepid, The narcissism you are talking about is on the level of a mental disorder...that's not the level of narcissism that haters are accusing Nana of having(from what I've read) and that's not the level of narcissism I'm accusing of UEE having. Even if we are talking about narcissism on the level of a mental disorder, narcissistic people can actually pick up on empathy and fake it.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201201/lack-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait wrote:
Note that narcissists can pick up on social cues and can "fake it" when necessary. Aside from looking "normal," the hope is that they will get something back.

@intrepid So no,  narcissistic people don't always show "all" the qualities of narcissism. Also even if you are going to argue that UEE is not narcissistic(at the level you are talking about) on the basis that she shows empathy, you'll have to give examples of UEE showing empathy and prove that the examples of empathy she is demonstrating is not faked. The level of narcissism that haters, ueeshi and I are talking about is far less severe than the level you are talking about. Hater's are accusing Nana of being narcissistic with regard to her world #2 title, i.e. she's bragging about her looks/title and and tries to rub it in peoples faces. This alone is not the mental disorder you think we were talking about nor is the examples of narcissism I've accused UEE of. I'll like to address all the points you've brought up but I really don't have time for that right now. I thought I'll say what I've said to clear the confusion.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:...Also even if you are going to argue that UEE is not narcissistic(at the level you are talking about) on the basis that she shows empathy, you'll have to give examples of UEE showing empathy...

As a fellow self-proclaimed Kahi fan I would assume you have seen the episode of Strong Heart where she explained how she ran away from home to become a dancer which Uee was also on.
This is my all-time favourite Kahi interview because it deals with what she had to go through to become the star she is today and cemented my admiration for her not only as an entertainer but as a human being, it was also Uee’s reaction to this story which she didn’t previously know about that I think is really telling about Uee’s character, she showed she is warm and caring person.
There are many such videos if I care to look but this one is the one I like most.

PlayboyzAdam wrote: ...and prove that the examples of empathy she is demonstrating is not faked.

That is ridicules, how can anyone prove anything if you automatically assume the subject is faking.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:The level of narcissism that haters, ueeshi and I are talking about is far less severe than the level you are talking about.

The reasons they are “less severe” in regards to either Nana or Uee is because they in fact don’t exist except in the minds of the haters.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:Hater's are accusing Nana of being narcissistic with regard to her world #2 title, i.e. she's bragging about her looks/title and and tries to rub it in peoples faces.

Actually Nana didn’t brag about her #2 title until much later and anyone who cares to follow the timeline on this would know that while Nana was grateful in the beginning she and the other members just thought it was funny, but after the media started to make a big deal out of it and kept asking about it only then did she slowly come round to the idea; whether she did this on her own or it was brought to her attention by her managers as a marketing tool who knows but self-promotion isn’t a negative and what helps Nana also benefits the group.

@PlayboyzAdam while I'm glad you are defending Nana against what are quite obviously unfounded accusations what I’m getting from your posts is that those accusations seem to (mainly) come from Uee biased members but instead of “just” pointing out the reasons they’re wrong you have used they’re bias as some sort of example of “you accuse my bias of such and such but yours is worse” counterpoint.
I’d just wish you could just take a step back and see that you are using the same rationalisation that they are doing only doing so in a much more pedantic way, this is neither helpful or a basis for a good robust discussion because instead of attacking the "issue" you have ended up attacking their bias which will only end with a bunch of very pi$$ed off people. 

intrepid wrote:I determined the truth of my statement by what I judge to be traits Uee has displayed in the past and the most obvious one is her adherence to Korean cultural norms, so you guessed right (not that I was trying to be obtuse about it) I was referring to the importance of seniority.

If it isn't obvious to you guys yet, that seniority strictness that UEE wanted has nothing to do with adherence to Korean cultural norms. Even the Korean's themselves found UEE's seniority strange. That's why they reacted the way they did in Strong Heart after they heard how UEE disciplined Raina and Nana and that's why UEE was asked about it again on Weekly Idol after E-young points out UEE to be the one in E-young's heart that always get mad at E-young. International fans seem to have misunderstood that Korean seniority system, the seniority strictness UEE did was done out of selfishness.

intrepid wrote:While being at the centre is where people look first that isn’t where people “always look,” they are also drawn to where the action is taking place which is where the interviewer is far left.

Given that Kaeun was by your own acknowledgement as much centre as E-young so interchangeable, then given a choice to be “centre stage” a “Narcissistic Uee” would want that position to be as close to the interviewer as possible and to be as close to the action as possible and standing next to Jung-ah would also fulfil a cultural self-important position.

Where people look first is actually irrelevant to my point. I was trying to say that the middle is where people look the most. I do agree that people are also usually drawn to where most of the action is but most of the action was happening on the far right as that's where both the interviewer(lady in red and white striped top) and the translator were standing so maybe that position next to Jung Ah isn't as important to a “Narcissistic Uee” as you think. Actually I don't think people care about looking towards the interviewer when the focus is on After School nor do I see the relevance of trying to demonstrated a “Narcissistic Uee” would want to be next to Jung Ah considering the level of narcissism of UEE we are arguing about doesn't include self-importance. You have this false idea that narcissistic people display all traits of narcissism and from this it seems you think there is only one level narcissism. Me and ueeshi have already agreed there's different levels of narcissism and the one we're talking about only concerns physical appearance.

intrepid wrote:Mentioning Jung-ah sucking as leader isn’t attacking her since she acknowledges as much and the other members have also said as much, stating a fact isn’t attacking someone however taking a stance based on an unconfirmed allegation or suspicion without real proof but based on an opinion is attacking them.

So far you've only been concentrating on one piece of evidences I've provided(i.e. that video of UEE taking E-young's spot) and I've long ago acknowledge that it might and  might not be a demonstration of UEE's narcissism and by it's self it proves nothing. However I do have other evidences provided but you've been avoiding them so let's get back to this....in the Star Date interview, UEE says "I look at myself and I think I look good", they laughs at this and the scene get replayed as well to emphasise it. Also UEE chokes on her words when she tries to reply after Nana asks UEE "Do you think you are really pretty". This is a confirmation of UEE's narcissism....unless you show me there's something wrong with my perception of the events.

intrepid wrote:You say Uee is narcissistic and have put forward “proof” of this and said “I am right look at my evidence prove me wrong.” The problem I’m having with this is it’s entirely cherry-picked to support what I can only describe as wish fulfilment, you seem so convinced that Uee is this way you dare people to prove you wrong.

How is it cherry picking? What's the difference between dare people to prove me wrong and ask people to prove me wrong? I have proof that UEE is narcissistic. If you find that my evidence is invalid then show me how the they're are invalid. That's how knowledge is attained from discussions. I am convinced UEE  is like what I've mentioned from my knowledge of UEE and rationality, not from wishful fulfilment. If anything, I wished that UEE wasn't what I've mentioned in this thread, here's proof.

https://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t61-discussion-potential-next-leader

PlayboyzAdam wrote:I don't actually think Uee is like that anymore. For example, when Lizzy accused Uee of headlocking and kneeing(I think?) other members. Uee said she did that to try and get close to the other members but they just walked away leaving her feel embarrassed. I haven't seen enough from Uee to suggest she'll be either a bad or good leader.

^See that's a fine example of wishful thinking, I'm very aware of UEE's selfishness and the best justification I've got for thinking that UEE wasn't like any more is that at some point she tried to be close the other members. That's a pretty crappy justification when you think about it e.g. just because she tried to get close to them doesn't means she's stop being selfish. The assumption was that if she was going to tried to get close to the other members she'll stop being so selfish...no actual proof.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:Considering Kahi was the leader it seems to me that Uee is acting/speaking out of line here. I think this seniority thing Uee had back then was horrible.
.....
I can see how it's all good for Uee but I think it's unfair for the others. This type of seniority relationship in Asian cultures(I'm Chinese BTW) is between people that are not close with each other and this is the relationship Uee was promoting.

Thank goodness under Kahi's leadership and the rest of After School's influences Uee dropped this seniority attitude and if she does become a leader I don't want to see it come back.

^This time I don't even justify my argument that under Kahi's leadership and the rest of After School's influence UEE changed....see more wishful thinking that UEE changed.

In case you're wondering what stopped this wishful thinking that UEE changed...well a few month's after those posts on the Potential Next Leader thread that video on UEE taking E-young's spot comes out as well as some things she says in a couple of interviews.

intrepid wrote:This was part of above quote and referred to the well-publicised scandal which hurt T-ara’s image so much they lost endorsements, popularity, and had to cancel events until it was sorted out.
.....
I’m doing this to show how infighting within a fandom can be just as damaging as anything outside of it and attacking an individual member can also create problems that can eventually explode into a highly damaging situation affecting all the members equally.

You are confused by what actually caused T-ara to loss endorsements and popularity. The T-ara case was a bullying scandal. Companies don't want to be endorsed by a group with a reputation for bullying also there actually were fans threatening the companies to drop their involvement with T-ara otherwise they'll stop using their products. It wasn't the infighting within a fandom that caused lost of endorsements.

intrepid wrote:As a fellow self-proclaimed Kahi fan I would assume you have seen the episode of Strong Heart where she explained how she ran away from home to become a dancer which Uee was also on.

Yes, I've seen that episode of strong heart. I'm not saying UEE is faking her emotions in that episode but there really is no point in you mentioning it if you're not going to prove that was a genuine demonstration of empathy because there is evidence of UEE being two-faced in the past and this could be a case. When After School was on Weekly Idol, look at UEE's expression when she pointed to herself after E-young gets asked who in E-young's heart is always mad at E-young and then look at how UEE tried to act innocent when she asks "Me?" like she didn't have a clue. There's a word UEE bias fans use to attack Nana which means two-faced....fake. That there is a fine demonstration of UEE being FAKE. Also note that UEE is an actor so she can probable cry on queue(well I've read she was good at crying from an interview anyway).

intrepid wrote:That is ridicules, how can anyone prove anything if you automatically assume the subject is faking.

The one making any assumptions is you. You've assumed that I "automatically assume the subject is faking" and I've made no such assumption. Your question, is what is ridicules, it's not like I'm holding a gun up to hold head and preventing you writing down proof that the example you've given demonstrates genuine empathy. Note that it actually doesn't matters because I've already said that the level of narcissism is not what we are talking about.

intrepid wrote:The reasons they are “less severe” in regards to either Nana or Uee is because they in fact don’t exist except in the minds of the haters.

The reason that why the level of narcissism that haters, ueeshi and I are talking about is “less severe” is because it doesn't have the symptoms that are on the level of a personality disorder (e.g. lack of empathy) which you are talking about.

intrepid wrote:Actually Nana didn’t brag about her #2 title until much later and anyone who cares to follow the timeline on this would know that while Nana was grateful in the beginning she and the other members just thought it was funny

Define brag, because I've seen people use it differently so I'm just wondering how are you using it. e.g. some people use brag as a synonym for mention and some people use it appropriately to mean "showing excessive pride and self-satisfaction in one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." because from what I've seen the latter was never the case for Nana.
I don't think you've done a very good job following the events from Nana's world #2 title. Read the stuff from my first post in the thread again. Nana was actually embarrassed by her world #2 title at first and the other members didn't think it was funny they thought it was ridiculous.

intrepid wrote:but after the media started to make a big deal out of it and kept asking about it only then did she has slowly come round to the idea; whether she did this on her own or it was brought to her attention by her managers as a marketing tool who knows but self-promotion isn’t a negative and what helps Nana also benefits the group.

You have to be a bit more specific here. Nana came around to what idea? If all you are talking about being proud of the world #2 title then I think she actually came around to it after Jung Ah told her to be proud of it.

intrepid wrote:what I’m getting from your posts is that those accusations seem to (mainly) come from Uee biased members

You've misunderstood my posts. I've clearly stated multiple times that UEE bias fans are notorious for voicing their h8 for Nana and that they are a major contributor to hating Nana. I don't have sufficient data to make a statement like most of the h8 towards Nana mainly comes from UEE bias fans although this could be true within this fandom. Outside this fandom, who knows.

intrepid wrote:but instead of “just” pointing out the reasons they’re wrong you have used they’re bias as some sort of example of “you accuse my bias of such and such but yours is worse” counterpoint.
I’d just wish you could just take a step back and see that you are using the same rationalisation that they are doing only doing so in a much more pedantic way, this is neither helpful or a basis for a good robust discussion because instead of attacking the "issue" you have ended up attacking their bias which will only end with a bunch of very pi$$ed off people.

Pointing out the reason they are wrong will only defend Nana against people that are capable of logically thinking. There's plenty of delusional people out there that will think something is true because they want it to be true. For UEE bias fans that are like that the best I can do is put them in their place....at the end of the day if they are super delusional nothing I say matters but that's all I've got...not exactly true as I know more about UEE than I've mentioned but I am trying to limit the amount of h8 I'm getting.
How is my rationalisation just like theirs?...hang on, before you answer that question get back to the discussion about that Star Date interview that you keep avoiding and that'll also save us time discussing about whether or not I'm attacking their bias. I am attacking the issue, a major part of the issue is UEE fans who need to be put in their place.