[DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

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[DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:25 pm

What's Wrong With This Fandom

This fandom Ruins After School Member's Careers

This fandom ruins After School member's careers when After School members are given a chance to further their careers.
Kahi did so much for After School, Pledis and Kahi started After School, Kahi held the crappiest position of After School(i.e. leader) and lead After School through its finest years, she's was their teacher, their mentor, she gave After School the most beautiful ballads ever written (With U, When I Fall, Someone is You), its was through her leadership that we saw such great and polished performances and with the help of her dancing and leadership, After School gained their reputation for their dancing and performing prowess.
When Kahi came back with "It's ME!" and needed this fandom's support, this fandom left her for dead, her come back became a major flop and now that she's 34 she doesn't have much time left to succeed in Kpop and she has very little chances as well. Kahi's Kpop career is pretty much ruin because of the lack of support from this fandom...that's the level of gratitude this fandom has for the greatest leader you'll ever see..BUT!!! no only is this fandom a bunch or ingrates, they're also a bunch of back stabbers. Through ignorance(i.e. lack of knowledge) and severe stupidity(inability to make sense of their acquired knowledge) fans thinks Kahi used her position of leader to hogged the lines in After School songs and the spread of this ignorance and stupidity has tarnished Kahi's reputation.
Now if you think ruining one members career was enough for this fandom, think again. When Raina had her Reset promotion, not only did this fandom not support her, this fandom protested against her solo debut. Raina contributed so much vocally to After School, but through this fandoms ignorance and jealousy, instead of appreciation she got hated for the amount of lines she recieved in After School songs. Although these day's instead of h8, this fandom pretty much ignores her, which is also a problem itself considering her contributions to After School. It was annoying/sad/upsetting for me to see that Raina picked Orange Caramel over After School (because she gets more attention in Orange Caramel) in Beatles Code 3D, I thought she'll value the other AS members more than that but...can't really blame her(I BLAME THIS FANDOM). Apart from from being funny(Raina's reaction, that is) it was also kind of sad when San E pointed out(on a show) that all Raina wants is attention...I don't really think Raina wants attention just recognition and appreciation. This year, this fandom had plenty of chances to show their appreciation for Raina (A Midsummer Night's promotion, Reset promotion, all the end of year nomination) but instead this fandom showed they don't really give a damn about her.

This Fandom's h8/Protest Against Pledis.

For those who don't know, Pledis is After School's management company. Through mass ignorance and stupdity, this fandom has developed a lot of h8 for Pledis and in doing so this fandom has deprived Pledis on of the supports that's need for a company to grow and become successful. By depriving Pledis of the support they need, this fandom has also messed up After School's success because After School depends on Pledis to promote them. The reasons fans have given for hating Pledis are some of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Pledis does treat their artist and fans well(although evidently they do mess up sometimes). Here's are some for the dumbest reasons for hating on Pledis I've seen,

1) The graduation system. Some Kpop entertainment companies force their artists to stay with a slave contract and when the company doesn't like them, they can force their artists to stay without giving them paid work. Pledis on the other hand introduces a system where artist can leave After School at the artist's own will. The graduation system is setup so that Pledis and After School doesn't denied their artist of a chance become more successful beyond their stay in After School if they choose to leave.  By protesting against the use of the graduation system, fans are denying After School members' opportunity to fulfill their dreams.
2) Pledis "picks" the worst times for After School to comeback. LOL, the level of stupidity expressed by this reason is laughable. Firstly, from what I've seen this is just a dumb excuse fans use because fans want Pledis to pick a time for After School to comeback to face-of against easier groups so After School can win without fans putting in the effort to help After School win by voting. LOL, that's how much faith this fandom has in After School's abilities and the level of support fans will give to After School. Secondly, by what methodology exists that'll allow anyone to pick a comeback date that'll guarantees After School comes back at a time where they will face off against groups that are weaker than After School? Honestly, the idea that this fandom wants Pledis to pick a date for After School to comeback against weaker opponents makes me sick. You guys are basically looking down on After School. After School IS THE BEST GROUP OUT THERE, I don't really give a damn if that's a matter of opinion or not but what I've shown throughout this year is that we do have the numbers in this fandom to go toe-to-toe with the more powerful fandoms out there. The only reason why After School doesn't win is because this fandom does crap all to make it happen.
3) Pledis forced Bekah to graduate. Pledis did not force Bekah to graduated. Pledis has said that they gave Bekah months to reconsider her graduation. It was Pledis that agreed with Kahi that there was no one else like BaKah and that's why she was admitted to After School. Fans have never provided anything concrete to prove Bekah was force to graduate by Pledis.
4) Pledis force Kahi to graduate because she was getting too old. If this was true, wouldn't you expect Pledis to be forcing Jung Ah to graduate since she is 31 this year(although the year is nearly over).
5) No AS comeback this year. After School was going to comeback in August but decided not to because they felt their song was mediocre. Fans protesting against Orange Caramel's My Copycat and Raina's reset promotions isn't just messing up those promotions, the profits from those promotions are needed by Pledis to fund After School's comeback so fans are also messing up After School's comeback as well....also do you guys understand the damage to After School's reputation if you force them to comeback with a mediocre song?
6) Pledis only promotes Orange Caramel, they don't promote the other members or After School. As you can see by Raina's solo debut, Pledis gives After School's member the opportunity to further their career when the opportunity arises, it's this fandom that denies the members their opportunities to succeed. From what I see, Pledis doesn't promote the other members and Afer School because there is no opportunity to promote them. Keep in mind that Pledis needs to do what they can to survive and stay relevant in Kpop. If Pledis dies, there will be no more After School comebacks. It's really fans fault that it's got to the stage where Pledis feels that focusing on Orange Caramel will be more benificial to their survival and I can't really disagree with their decision, can you? If fans supported After School more and After School was making more money for Pledis, this wouldn't have been an  issue. It is an issue now because this fandom has messed up big time, one of my biggest concern is that there'll be less song writers willing to write quality songs for After School because they fear if they give it to After School, the song will flop.

Pledis had done more for After School and this fandom then what this fandom realizes or is willing to give credit to Pledis for. After School members have already shown their appreciation for what Pledis has done for After School and fans.

After so many years of unwarranted h8, I think it's time this fandom showed their  appreciation to Pledis as well.

@Sarah, I was going to attempt to expand on all the points of short comings of this fandom that I once listed for you but it's taken over 3 hours for me to elaborate on just 2 points, I don't have anymore time to continue so I hope have you have the time to write your opinion piece to set the fandom straight.

I really wrote this post in response to a question on asdaze.com asking what was wrong with this fandom. My usual approach is to write a lengthy post detailing the problems with this fandom but consider time availability is a major issue I can't do this anymore but this fandom is much more messed up than what I have mentioned.

To answer the question "What's was wrong with this fandom?" directly, here what I have to say,

This fandom is a bunch of back stabbing ingrates. This fandom is too ignorant/stupid to appreciate the good that After School members and Pledis has given and too ignorant/stupid to recognise their own short comings. This fandom has been messing up After School's success for years and is continuing to do so. This fandom takes After School for granted and when After School and it's members need this fandom's support, this fandom leaves them for dead.

I apologize to those fans that I may have upset but all that(and more) needed to be said. I hope that in 2015 this fandom changes because for After School's sake, this fandom needs to change.


Last edited by PlayboyzAdam on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:14 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by Admin on Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:42 am

I agree of all the thing you said. although i am guilty of somethings. I'll try my best to correct my ways and support AS. Now that i got a job, i am saving up money to buy and download their album when it comes out. I hope all the Playgirlz/boyz will stop being lazy or giving up so easy (like they did during first love). Let's make 2015 a great year for AS. we already know they are working on a album. let's make this song do better than B.O.Y. we don't know who AS will face when they make a comeback. it could be EXO, Big Bang, SNSD, Fx, Sistar, it could be anyone and trust me AS will face someone whether we like it or not. so please stop being lazy, stop giving up so easy, stop blaming pledis, and start doing something.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:48 am

I had a similar rant two years ago or so. I am not going to say you ain't right, but you just generalized a lot. I mean, there are fans that cannot just do everything that's on some others' hands to support. I count myself into that group, I cannot just buy every single release at the moment that's released, nor have the time to be online voting as much as I would love to.

However, I do find it sad that people voluntarily don't support anything they do. I am also mad at some stuff Pledis did wrong this year. However, I wasn't against OC come backs, I was more than pleased with Raina's solo releases and when Kahi had her share, I also was rooting for her. I don't think fandom as a whole has ruined anything, but a big part of the fandom just doesn't care or wants to boicot, then, we must admit we're not as hyped up as other fandoms may be.

I'd never cared that much for the system, if Juyeon happens to graduate, I won't be angry because of that, however, I must admit I will be decieved if Pledis fails to secure her contract and take that step further with her. That is not a matter of being a brat, it's a matter of anylizing what they are loosing in terms of investment and profits.

You mentioned all the aspects that make AS have a weak fandom, yes, but even if us the intl fans make a lot of noise, the chore of the problem resides on the main Korean fandom itself. Most of the times, the ones whom actually do and start the hype are the ones whom the product is launched first to, intl fans tag along and, yes, they do help a big deal most of the times, but if the chore of the fandom is like this... well.

Ever since being a fan of them (debut) I've seen from bad mouthing the system, the company, to petitions to request the graduation system to be abolished. I've had rants like yours because of that, because of the lack from most fans to understand the group and its true nature.

Regarding AS not coming back in Korea this year, yes that's a bad thing. However, I can appreciate if they say they felt they didn't had a song good enough. Coming back with a mediocre track when this year was all about who dared to be the sexiest, would've been tricky. But the thing is they couldn't even try. On the other hand, that meant time for OC, Raina, and the other members to expose themselves through BB. The only thing I do observe from that is that it may not benefit AS if they attempt to come back in 2015. But Pledis had a lot more things on hold this year.

It was sad how the fandom didn't fully support NU'EST's come back. While I did like AS' Japanese work this year, the one NU'EST did to debut sounded as a desperate attempt to make money. Even when I always appreciate Hallyuu idols launching different songs from their Korean releases for Japan.

As much as I do understand your facts on blaming the fandom, we can't just say Pledis has done everything right this year. Some things were terribly wrong, like how they and Fantagio dealt with the whole Hello Venus drama. No wonder Ara left at the end. I was that much busy that I just knew last week she'd left, but can't blame her. I am sure it was a sticky situation for them all, but just breaking them like this, probably Ara felt useless as a leader and mad, even with herself. It's a shame Pledis lost her through that. But yes, again, they don't force people to stay and that's a bonus.

I think everything we couldn't see this year is due to the company struggling to expand as desired. They want things a certain way and while they're trying to make it happen, people leave or stuff comes in the way. Just like how much SEVENTEEN has changed in a year, while we were told they would be already debuted.

And regarding the time they may come back. They will always face stronger fandoms, so complaining about the dates they choose is pointless. I still believe than rather than having a fandom that seems to be that much discouraged and filled with hatred, AS what needs is to captivate the rest of the audience. The last times they'd come back is not like they weren't there fighting for the top spot, the same for OC. I only partiallly agree on people wronging Raina and Kahi's solos. Yes, they didn't got what they deserved, from day 1. I am glad that Raina got an award at the end.

And as for people not being able to vote/tweet/etc. when it's required, I can say that I've experienced a lack of feedback whenever I try to spread the systems you'd created or the info, even being busy, that's the thing I could still do. That and trying not to miss my timing to log in and vote from many accounts possible.

My small contribuition to the whole Pledis fandom was also creating that (now long) playlist on youtube that linked all MV's from the Pledis' official channels.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by AS NaLiz on Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:58 am

I partially agree with your opinion but yet disagree with it.... I'll give it you that you did point out a lot of very good reasons as to what's wrong with this fandom. The situation with Kahi.... fans did turn their backs on her when she needed them the most, I think it was mainly because most of them thought she couldn't get far in the K-pop industry, which in all honest most solo artist aren't very successful but there some very good solo artist I must say. Kahi may have been one of the greatest leaders, but how many of us were there at the very start to see what she provided for After School? Most of us were late bloomers (including me). I did go back and look at past videos and watch Playgirlz School which did bring my many laughs and smiles. As for her age, I think 34 isn't too old to keep promoting,it's just that she's kinda past her prime? IDK?

As for the Raina promotion... I really had no idea that we were against the idea of her going solo.... but us ignoring Raina? Are you completely sure about that? If I remembered we showed her much loved and gave her support. As for her picking Orange Caramel over After School, I think the main reason is because it's easier for her to show off her powerful voice because she gets more lines since there are only 3 members.

The thing about Pledis not promoting because there is no opportunity, is just a bunch of baloney. You can pretty much comeback anytime you wanted regardless of the date. The fact that Hello Venus not having a comeback in their long run is my evidence. So you're telling me that in that long period of time... there was not even one chance for them, fans had nothing to do with that. But I do think if we have showed more support for them eariler they might have had a comeback but in all honesty you can't just blame the fans.... everyone played a role in the crime. You also said that if Pledis dies then there wouldn't be a an AS comeback but looking at it right now... AS hasnt cameback yet? So does that mean Pledis is dead or what? (Sorry...... not trying to sound like a smart ass, forgive me if I do sound like one though) In all honest It's Pledis' fault thinking that AS wouldn't bring them any profit when all they hear/see from us is "WE WANT AFTER SCHOOL COMEBACK!"

About the voting situation, I will say that I'm one of those people who don't vote often. I know we made a lovley way to vote easy but I'm just too lazy to do it and I will take blame for that. However I will try to buy their albums whenever they release one, so I do play a small role in supporting them Smile

I probably have more thoughts about this topic but as of now my mind is becoming blank. I will give Pledis props for taking up with all the crap we give them so yeah... props to them! But I just hope, just hope, that Pledis shows AS some love, and that maybe in the future, Fans+Pledis=AS getting a lots of trophies? Sorry if it's kinda long.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by Rirism on Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:04 am

This is more than true and there's everything i would had liked to say since a lot of time. The fact is that i'm used to see this ignorance. I know, i myself can't buy albums because i have many problems in real life so i'd be more comfortable to help AS in other ways, by voting and helping fans to vote. The problem here is that there are no new fans joining the fandom lately. There are always the same fans like i know lots of pgz and i manage to meet them everywhere(like you Adam xD it has been 2 or 3 years since we met on yt) and that's sad.
People like to stan new groups or really famous groups just because they're mainstream and it's easier to support them because they're already famous so who cares right? I never liked to stan big groups, i was an ELF once, a really hardcore one, but after some time it felt like there was nothing special about them so i changed my opinions and started stanning EXO but again, it was way too plain. So now apart JYJ and TVXQ, i'm not stanning any other big group. I'm mostly a Pledis Stan so i can say EVERY FANDOM UNDER PLEDIS' GROUPS IS MORE THAN LAZY.
You can see it with Sm17es(17's fans), 17 didn't debuted yet and maybe that's why but lots of people stopped supporting 17 only because "Pledis takes too much time to debut them" and what they do? They start supporting groups as SM trainees or how they call them or Winner or others that haven't even debuted and that they don't even know about, just because the company is bigger or they think it'll take less for them to debut.
We're all on the same boat. I just think the fans blame too much Pledis but if they were in Pledis' place what would they do? They couldn't manage the groups better for sure. I hope 2015 will be a better year where fans will finally wake up and realize what they're doing.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by TheKawaiiKimchi on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:37 am

I could not agree more with this. I may not post on these forums but on Twitter I am always supporting AS and really find it offensive that people can call themselves 'fans', yet not only do they never actually SUPPORT AS (and definitely not Raina or Kahi which I was also furious about) but they think they can sit on Twitter/ whatever SNS and bitch about the members? That is not how a fandom works. I've bought every AS release to date and constantly tweet them with support (E-Young is my bias and she even replied to me so I know they are grateful when they get tweets) and watch their MVs etc, and I can't help but wonder how anyone can call themselves a fan without ever showing any support? I kind of understand if people can't afford to buy the music (but 79p on itunes, you really should) but there is no excuse to not show support elsewhere, and I can't get my head around the fact that some people still call themselves fans without supporting the girls AND being rude about them.

I have a lot to say on this matter lol, I think anyone who follows me on Twitter has probably seen how ragey I can get about this fandom sometimes. I had to block someone on there not long ago cos they were slating Raina's nose and I could have just hit that person. That is not a fan, that is a rude anti. Some people need to re-consider why they describe themselves as a fan.

(I'm trying not to generalise because the pgz and pbz I talk with on Twitter are mostly lovely and supportive... but that's because I block and unfollow the ones that aren't. There are a lot out there)

I love leaving things on a serious note so pls everyone be happy let's make 2015 the best year yet for our girls <333
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by intrepid on Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:27 pm

I’ve tried to understand what Pledis has been up to in 2014 and have come to the conclusion that it’s been a year of consolidation to them. in that they’re saving their pennies for 2015.

As far as I can tell Pledis isn’t a public company, it doesn’t have shareholders and if it’s private like I suspect then money is raised by its normal operation and a few investors; this means they don’t have the money for a regular comeback schedule for everyone and have to choose carefully who is to comeback for the best return.
Pledis has also expanded its line-up of artists in a move I believe is to create a critical mass where the money coming in is enough to self-sustain a more regular comeback schedule.

I also think 17 is what Pledis is relying on to kick-start their growth to the next level and what you’ll see in 2015 is Seventeen debuting on a level of a major company and unlike its other artists will have a more sustained level of company support in order to keep a higher level of momentum going as they quickly debut in Japan after their Korean debut then to China.

In order for Seventeen to succeed they need to match EXO’s level or near enough and Pledis can’t be stingy about it this time they have to bet the bank, it’s an all-in deal.
If you are a fan of any of Pledis’s artists then your participation and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY your “money” will be needed for 2015 because if Pledis is trying to do what I think it’s doing and fail they put at risk their whole company, and if pledis goes down then so does every individual group on their roster.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:07 pm

Rather than EXO's level, I think they're trying to go YG, as I've seen their nurturing them to be able to write and produce their own material. But that is taking way too long, I am not sure they have the line-up they thought they would have at this rate, because a few boys already left. However, if it's all for the sake of securing a strong group, they may succeed.

It's obvious that if they say they had a song for AS but since they thought it was mediocre they didn't come back, is because they hadn't good results with NU'EST's album. Is a pity because I honestly think the album was well rounded, had good songs and surely it costed them a lot. They probably also lost money with loosing HV.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:32 am

Admin wrote:although i am guilty of somethings. I'll try my best to correct my ways and support AS.
@Shu, I used to be guilty as well. I got my first job after graduating from Uni near the end of 2009 but I was too lazy too put in the effort to buy After School albums. It was Bekah's graduation that made me realize how selfish I had been. After discovering After School, I spent hours every day spazzing over their awesomeness but never attempt to support them. I took After School and Bekah for granted, they did so much to bring joy to my life and I didn't really do anything to show how much I appreciated them. Also it wasn't really until they said in an interview they wish to win #1 in 2012 that I started taking the trouble to find out how to vote for them. As you can see in the past I haven't really been supportive.

OKDR wrote:I mean, there are fans that cannot just do everything that's on some others' hands to support. I count myself into that group, I cannot just buy every single release at the moment that's released, nor have the time to be online voting as much as I would love to.
@OKDR, I am well aware that there are fans that can't afford to purchase After School album and I don't expected them to when they can't afford it but regarding voting, the least fans can do it make an attempt and not quit just because After School has no chance of winning or everyone else is quitting. Voting at least once a day can help out a lot. One survey suggests there are over 50000 Playgirlz/Playboyz, if 50000 fans voted once a day for M COUNTDOWN and Show Champion then we will have no problems helping After School place first in the M CountDown and Show Champion votes. If fans can't vote at all because they are too stressed or they need to focus on more important tings(e.g. study) then it is understandable. Also, the Playgirlz Voter is there to help fans do the voting if time availability is an issue. Also I have a lot of trouble believing that so many fans within this fandom had a legit reason for not help Raina on MAMA. Have you seen my posts on the "Roses for Raina campaign" yet? That'll show you how much this fandom truly cares about their idols. Also if fans can't buy albums or vote then the least they can do it stop spread lies about how much Pledis sucks.

OKDR wrote:I am also mad at some stuff Pledis did wrong this year.
@OKDR, like what? Are you talking about the mess Pledis created that caused Raina to delete all her twitter posts? If that's what you are talking about then you really need to get over it. Pledis made no excuses for what happened and acknowledge that what happen was their fault. They said they'll work on improving communication channels between Pledis and the fanbases. Regarding fan claims of abuse by Pledis staff, Pledis said they will look into those claims. Pledis handled the problem perfectly as anyone would expect from a decent company. It'll be nice if Pledis didn't mess up to begin with but since they did what was right at then end, fans need should stop being so petty and get over it.

OKDR wrote:I don't think fandom as a whole has ruined anything, but a big part of the fandom just doesn't care or wants to boicot, then, we must admit we're not as hyped up as other fandoms may be.
LOL, hmmm... not caring and boycotting are the 2 main points I've used to demonstrate this fandom is ruining After School's success...LOL, if I'm not mistaken you are trying to downplay the severity of this fandom's ignorance and stupidity. "....then, we must admit we're not as hyped up as other fandoms may be." <-- that is a severe understatement. Pledis promotes and supports After School, by boycotting Pledis fans are boycotting After School's support(hence ruining After School's success). Heck, do I really need to explain why not caring is runing After School's success?....fine....success in Kpop is defined by the amount of fame and fortune an artist receives, by not caring, fans are denying their artist of fame and fortune.

OKDR wrote:I must admit I will be decieved if Pledis fails to secure her contract and take that step further with her.
I may have misunderstood you but from my understanding "deceive" means "lied to". How will you have been lied to(and who by) if Pledis fails to secure Jueyon's contract?

OKDR wrote:You mentioned all the aspects that make AS have a weak fandom
LOL, no I haven't. I am nowhere close to mentioning the full extent of how messed up this fandom is.

OKDR wrote:but even if us the intl fans make a lot of noise, the chore of the problem resides on the main Korean fandom itself. Most of the times, the ones whom actually do and start the hype are the ones whom the product is launched first to, intl fans tag along and, yes, they do help a big deal most of the times, but if the chore of the fandom is like this... well.
We international fans don't just tag along, we now anticipate the products' launch and we play a big part in the product them internationally. In the past international fans depended on Korean fans to take care of digital sale(which accounts for most of the points in music show awards and end of year ceremony awards) but there is a system that is now being tested that will allow international fans to contribute to digital sales. Hopefully soon International fans will no longer be able to blame this fandom's failure on Korean fans.

OKDR wrote:It was sad how the fandom didn't fully support NU'EST's come back.
I would have like to help NU'EST but After School is my top priority so I've pretty much abandon Hello Venus and NU'EST.

OKDR wrote:Some things were terribly wrong, like how they and Fantagio dealt with the whole Hello Venus drama.
Unless you have facts about what happened, you really shouldn't jump to conclusions. As far as I know, there is no official statement about why Pledis and Fantagio broke up. Although from what I have seen, if Pledis broke up with Fantagio because of the direction that Fantagio wanted for Hello Venus, I totally support Pledis' decision to separate Ara and Yoonjo from Hello Venus, keep in mind you are talking to the same fan that was initially more than happy to see Kahi graduate because he couldn't take how Avex was using her in After School. What Fantagio did with Hello Venus is offensive to me. The thing between Pledis and Fantagio was something Pledis did right. You're just making assumptions about why Ara left, I have yet to see any facts supporting any reasons for why she left.

OKDR wrote:I think everything we couldn't see this year is due to the company struggling to expand as desired. They want things a certain way and while they're trying to make it happen, people leave or stuff comes in the way. Just like how much SEVENTEEN has changed in a year, while we were told they would be already debuted.
Yep, oppose to expanding. Pledis is struggling to survived and fans aren't helping with their protest against Pledis(i.e. boycotting as you've put it). If Pledis is smart they won't debut SEVENTEEN until things get better. This year has been a pretty crap year for Pledis so things really do need to get better in 2015.

OKDR wrote:I still believe than rather than having a fandom that seems to be that much discouraged and filled with hatred, AS what needs is to captivate the rest of the audience. The last times they'd come back is not like they weren't there fighting for the top spot, the same for OC.
What we needs is a fandom that will stick by After School no matter what. Even if the odds are against After School, this fandom should still stick by After School until the end. Having captivating performances isn't enough to win. Look at how Raina And San E were nominated to win for Inkigayo, they did so well in digital sales they even beat Teayang but practically no one voted for them. I watched that live streaming and when the results showed up I was embarrassed because before Raina and San E's eye, they can see that lots of people listened to their song but this fandom couldn't give a damn about whether they won or not.

OKDR wrote:I am glad that Raina got an award at the end.
The awards that was won was a hip hop award(unless you are talking about another awards I don't know about). San E was the one that performed the hip hop part in A Midsummer Night's Sweetness. Raina did contribute by making the song sound nice but that really was San E's award.

OKDR wrote:I can say that I've experienced a lack of feedback whenever I try to spread the systems you'd created or the info, even being busy, that's the thing I could still do.
cheers thanks for helping to spread the Playgirlz Voter Very Happy. I've contacted about 40 different After School fan bases to help out and only less than a hand full has responded....this fandom generally doesn't give a damn...this needs to change by 2015.

OKDR wrote:My small contribuition to the whole Pledis fandom was also creating that (now long) playlist on youtube that linked all MV's from the Pledis' official channels.
I appreciated the effort but viewing videos from a playlist doesn't work. I know because I've actually done tested on it. Right now I'm suspecting that the way the Playgirlz Voter views MV does't work either, I'll perform testing on it later when I have time. It did work when I was first created the feature in the Playgirlz Voter but right now I'm not too confident.

AS NaLiz wrote:Kahi may have been one of the greatest leaders, but how many of us were there at the very start to see what she provided for After School?
I wasn't there at the start either, I think I started joining this fandom during the Diva era(somewhere mid 2009) But I can clearly see what Kahi's contributions were from the videos I've seen on Youtube. I know I generalised it when I blame this fandom for not supporting Kahi's comeback but I especially hold the older generation fans(between 2009 and 2011) responsible. From the debates I've had, I can see even the older generation fans fail to recognise Kahi contributions to After School. This fandoms failure to appreciate and recognise the contributions of After School members is a major reason to why this fandom is so messed up.

AS NaLiz wrote:Most of us were late bloomers (including me).
I'm aware of the fans that's in your position and I can't really blame you....most of my hatred is actually directed at the older fans anyway.

AS NaLiz wrote:I think 34 isn't too old to keep promoting,it's just that she's kinda past her prime?
I don't think Kahi is passed her prime plus I think Kahi still looks hotter than most of the girls in After School.

AS NaLiz wrote:I really had no idea that we were against the idea of her going solo
The protest wasn't against Raina going solo. It was against Raina's solo being made when fans wanted an After School comeback.

AS NaLiz wrote:but us ignoring Raina
Raina is one of the least appreciated members. She's one of the least popular members in After School and in Orange Caramel she is the least popular member. She spends a lot of time in the middle of After School's dance formation(2nd to to Kahi) but people barely notice she exists. You can read more about it in at http://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t61p15-discussion-potential-next-leader

AS NaLiz wrote:If I remembered we showed her much loved and gave her support.
I remember a lot of protesting and people not giving a damn...have you seen on Weekly Idol how Raina said the response to her Rest promotion were good, but there weren't many responses. Seems to me that Raina clearly knows this fandom doesn't give a damn about her.

AS NaLiz wrote:As for her picking Orange Caramel over After School, I think the main reason is because it's easier for her to show off her powerful voice because she gets more lines since there are only 3 members.
No she said it was because she get's more attention in Orange Caramel. People tell her she'll pretty and cute when she is in Orange Caramel.

AS NaLiz wrote:The thing about Pledis not promoting because there is no opportunity, is just a bunch of baloney. You can pretty much comeback anytime you wanted regardless of the date.
You've misunderstood what "opportunity" means. Time is only one criteria of an "opportunity" for a comeback, other criteria include funding, availability of a comeback song or songs(good ones, not mediocre ones) etc.

AS NaLiz wrote:You also said that if Pledis dies then there wouldn't be a an AS comeback but looking at it right now... AS hasnt cameback yet? So does that mean Pledis is dead or what?
Not it does not mean that Pledis is dead. However it does suggest Pledis is close to dying though.

AS NaLiz wrote:In all honest It's Pledis' fault thinking that AS wouldn't bring them any profit when all they hear/see from us is "WE WANT AFTER SCHOOL COMEBACK!"
Just because you say "WE WANT AFTER SCHOOL COMEBACK!", doesn't guarantee a successful After School comeback. Plus, Pledis had the right idea. Comeback with Orange Caramel's My Copycat because Catallena did well and give Raina her Solo debut because A Midsummer Nigt's Sweetness did very well. At least in theory it was a great idea however in practice, with the selfish protecting of fans, both comebacks flopped. Also, do you do know this --> "...when all they hear/see from us is 'WE WANT AFTER SCHOOL COMEBACK!'" is the protesting I was talking about right? Not only was such actions pointless during the My Copycat and Reset promotions they were also harmful for the success of those promotions and After School's success.

AS NaLiz wrote:About the voting situation, I will say that I'm one of those people who don't vote often. I know we made a lovley way to vote easy but I'm just too lazy to do it and I will take blame for that.
I was really hoping that more fans would help out for 2015 Sad ...hang on, if Nana wanted to win some music show awards, do you love her enough to help her?

AS NaLiz wrote:However I will try to buy their albums whenever they release one, so I do play a small role in supporting them Smile
Unfortunately, one physical album sale only goes toward show rankings for one week from my understanding(someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but they provided money to After School and Pledis which is still pretty good Smile

AS NaLiz wrote:But I just hope, just hope, that Pledis shows AS some love, and that maybe in the future, Fans+Pledis=AS getting a lots of trophies?
Pledis shows After School and fans more love than this fandom recognizes or is willing to admit. The problem is this fandom not Pledis.

Rirism wrote:i myself can't buy albums because i have many problems in real life so i'd be more comfortable to help AS in other ways, by voting and helping fans to vote.
Helping in anyway is good and if for what ever reason fans can't help vote. Promoting After School is also very helpful.

TheKawaiiKimchi wrote:E-Young is my bias and she even replied to me so I know they are grateful when they get tweets
Cool another E-young fan, hehe I'm actually noting who are E-young fans because one day I probably will be calling for you guys to help out. Cool, E-young replies to you...hang on do you know Korean?

TheKawaiiKimchi wrote:I can't help but wonder how anyone can call themselves a fan without ever showing any support?
This may sound strange but I define anyone to be an After School fan if they like After School, the level of support is irrelevant in my definition. They can not vote or buy After School albums and I will still consider them fans. Although given circumstances such lack of support for After School is a problem.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:18 am

Adam you quote too many parts of m post, I'll try summarizing what I mostly meant from my tablet, forgive any typos:

Mostly stuff was mad starts with HV, and no I am not just guessing. The girls said it themseleves in an inyerview, don't ask me which one, I read it and reblogged on my tumblr a few weeks ago. They stated how they suffered because they didn't want the team to be separated, Ara and Alice went to the company Tricell to see if they could do something about but returned defeated. They'd spent weeks crying over it. Actually crying into their sleep. Alice resisted as much as she could until she also gave in. It was honestly even worst than I previously guessed. The girls felt trully hopeless and that hurts me. It wasn't right to just brrak a team like that. At the end, Ara left Pledis too, so I have no doubts they didn't solve it right.

Decieved as feeling disapointed, not lied to. Expecting something the aaency seemed to seek with a group like AS then failing to do it. To train girls that way, put them on the spotlight, then she juss leaves like that. I can't blame them for parting ways, but you can't deny this is another failure to take profit from their investment in Juyeon.

That's mostly all, as with the other points we'll never fully agree with each other, as I take things in a different way. Playlists do help for views, by the way, I know because I use them with other acts from other companies like 9muses or J-Pop groupsblike DOLIDEMO or LDH acts like Dream. Also they're useful when you embed them into a post and succed to drag in new viewers, because they have it all already in a playlist and they don't need to browse for those, you know how much lazy most people are.

Have a nice start 2015!
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:29 am

Oh, regarding NU'EST failure, more than not recieving support from fellow Pledis' fandoms it was the constantly bitching some LOVE's did about the songs of the album not being them or winning for them to get back to their previous concepts from debut. The overall fandom failed to appreciate the album was done not only with effort but carefully put together, tracks that probably costed them a lot of money and time and were really more than just decent. Bit fandom didn't felt the sound, because they had a narrow minded idea of what NU'EST must and mustn't sound like. It was even worse than when AS did changes on their sound or image. So you see, Pledis fandoms overall became as much rotten as PG.

Also no, I don't put the blame only on the Korean fans, but I do honestly think it's troublesome the lack of communication between both sides. I blame only myself for being unable to go to the fancafe anymore because since I cannot hace the time I need to study, I can't improve my Korean and I do know it's better using that language rather than English to communicate with them.

It was said in the past, that the communication started breaking because some intl fans stole content like fan photos of the girls after being warned not to. Honestly, I believe that if we attempt to make a difference we shall do it as an overall fandom, so the intl fans can improve their methods too. The voter thing was a big deal of an improvement tho, but sometimes is like we needed also to show our presence in the actual field and that is hard to do if we cannot communicate well with PG that are on that field.

Is maybe just my opinion, but when fandoms are connected things get easier and stronger.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by intrepid on Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:26 am

I think blaming fans is a pointless self-defeating exercise in negativity that isn’t going to help anyone; and this is coming from a pessimist. Neutral

You have to ask the question, what is a “fans” role?

We are the noise makers, the agitators, we don’t matter so much in ourselves because in the greater scheme of things we are too few, our purpose in life is to make sure the word is spread to the people who really do matter and they have a name, they’re called the general public.

I have had endless augments on YouTube about HelloVenus with people who think they have changed for the better, who think the fact that video’s like Wiggle Wiggle which rapidly got a huge view count is proof of success.

Despite the fact that I pointed out that this has been their worst comeback by chart position and sales they still think view counts mean something which is quite frankly absurd.

And “that” is where I think the fandom is being useless; we are focusing on the wrong thing! Instead of focusing our energy getting the word out we are caught in a cycle of self-recriminations and over bloating view counts and awards instead of what we really should be doing.

Now I’m not saying voting doesn’t help but let’s face an inconvenient truth, unless the general public gets on board it really doesn’t matter how many trophies our favourite group wins or how many view counts their videos have, if the general public aren’t buying the music then it means nothing.

There is an important message in the fancam of EXID’s live performance that we should learn; EXID released their song Up and Down and initially it didn’t do well and was falling in the charts, then someone filmed them and suddenly they made a comeback after it went viral. Yes it was a sexy shot and that’s why it got a lot of views but that’s not “how” it helped EXID, it helped by exposing people who weren’t paying attention to their “music,” which was good, and “that” turned into sales which put EXID back into the charts.

Engaging the general public (in Korea) who aren’t “fans” but just buy music because its good is where I believe we need to focus our efforts and that is going to require some out of the box thinking and I certainly don’t have any answers on how to achieve it; if it was “simple” everyone would be doing it, but to achieve an “all kill” or high sales and chart positions means a hell of a lot more than view counts or trophies because sales is the meat and potatoes music groups and companies need to survive while that other stuff is snack food.

What we need is to find a way to spread the word in Korea to the target group that buys music and make sure “they” know about a group’s comeback and create a buzz, but that would require the Korean fanbases cooperation because they would know what’s available and what works.

By joining our efforts something may present itself we haven’t yet thought of and it’s where I think we should start, what “can” we proactively do to promote to the general public?
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:53 am

OKDR wrote:They stated how they suffered because they didn't want the team to be separated, Ara and Alice went to the company Tricell to see if they could do something about but returned defeated. They'd spent weeks crying over it. Actually crying into their sleep. Alice resisted as much as she could until she also gave in. It was honestly even worst than I previously guessed. The girls felt trully hopeless and that hurts me. It wasn't right to just brrak a team like that.
@OKDR, so far all you've stated is how wrong it was to break up Hello Venus and blamed the break up on Pledis and Fantagio. You've put the blame on Pledis as well but failed to prove that Pledis did anything wrong for you to h8 them. For all you know, Pledis may have not wanted Hello Venus broken up but Fantagio didn't leave Pledis any choices. I don't think you truly know what happened to cause to Hello Venus breakup.

OKDR wrote:Expecting something the aaency seemed to seek with a group like AS then failing to do it. To train girls that way, put them on the spotlight, then she juss leaves like that. I can't blame them for parting ways, but you can't deny this is another failure to take profit from their investment in Juyeon.
@OKDR, you expected me to blame Pledis for failing to keep juyeon?.....you obviously haven't seen my recent posts on asdaze.com yet...I'll summarize them. The biggest problem Pledis has is this fandom. With how messed up this fandom is, Juyeon has no future in Pledis or After School. This is true for all the other After School members and other Pledis artist as well. Mass ignorance and stupidity has lead this fandom to discrediting and destroying Pledis, depriving Pledis of the support they need to succeed as a company and hence depriving After School the support they need as well. Both Pledis and After School as sinking ships, if Juyeon wants to jump ship to try and survive, I don't blame Juyeon or Pledis, I blame this fandom for sinking both ships.

OKDR wrote:Playlists do help for views, by the way, I know because I use them with other acts from other companies like 9muses or J-Pop groupsblike DOLIDEMO or LDH acts like Dream.
@OKDR, Are you talking about putting videos in a Youtube playlist and let is auto play? If you are then what tests have you done to verify that is does work or is effective? In 2013, I have tested it with other fans, some of the results can be found at https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=4A9S4FFNryQ but the full details of the test and the results can only be found by digging through thousands of comments on the Pledis First Love MV comments. Also Youtube's analytical tools were used to perform the analysis of the views for the test.

OKDR wrote:Also they're useful when you embed them into a post and succed to drag in new viewers, because they have it all already in a playlist and they don't need to browse for those
@OKDR, that actually is a good idea.

OKDR wrote:I blame only myself for being unable to go to the fancafe anymore because since I cannot hace the time I need to study
@OKDR, yeah you probably should just concentrate on your studies, it'll be good if you help out to run the Playgirlz Voter if you have time. It will make a big difference in the long run.

OKDR wrote:The voter thing was a big deal of an improvement tho, but sometimes is like we needed also to show our presence in the actual field and that is hard to do if we cannot communicate well with PG that are on that field.
@OKDR, some Korean After School fan bases know perfect English e.g. FillWithRaina but unfortunately the FillWithRaina guys seem more interested in spazzing over Raina then helping her with her career or win awards...this is actually true for all the Korean fanbases that I know of that understands English. Willing to spazz over After School but when After School needs help or if an international fan needs their help to help After School, they leave us for dead. However, I'm still going to spam the Korean fanbases and the other international ones I know of for help.

OKDR wrote:Is maybe just my opinion, but when fandoms are connected things get easier and stronger.
@OKDR, LOL right now this fandom is connected by mass ignorance and stupidity and this connection is very strong.

intrepid wrote:I think blaming fans is a pointless self-defeating exercise in negativity that isn’t going to help anyone
@intrepid, by blaming fans I'm pointing out their faults(i.e telling them what horrible human beings they are) and if they don't like the idea of being considered as such horrible human being then they are force to either justify themselves or change....this thread may have backfire a little when "AS NaLiz" said,
"I know we made a lovley way to vote easy but I'm just too lazy to do it and I will take blame for that."
....I hope other fans don't get encourage to do that, although the majority of this fandom actually is like that. At least "AS NaLiz" said he'll try to buy their albums so as you can see blaming fans isn't so pointless after all.

intrepid wrote:We are the noise makers, the agitators, we don’t matter so much in ourselves because in the greater scheme of things we are too few, our purpose in life is to make sure the word is spread to the people who really do matter and they have a name, they’re called the general public.
@intrepid, no this fandom is a bunch of deluded ingrates. We needed about 200 fans running the Playgirlz Voter for 6 days to get 7000 MBC+ accounts to help OC match Super Junior's first place in the  Show Champion votes. Sarah said ASDaze gets about 800 unique visitors a day, 96 fans participated in the first asdaze survey this year and about 100 fans have already participated in the "Playgirlz Dazzling Awards" so instead of about 200 fans in 6 days the same result can be achieved with 100 fans in 12 days. For the MAMA awards we needed the participation of about 11000 to 12000 fans per day to guarantee Raina win places first in the votes. The fact that it was possible to vote 2 times a day in the MAMA Roses poll really meant that our competition probably have about half that amount of fans so a closer estimation would be 6000 to 9000 fans needed to help win MAMA. From the surveys I've seen, we have about 50000 fans in this fandom, regardless of the survey I'm still pretty sure we have more than 12000 fans in this fandom. Also since MAMA voting is done using the same accounts for M CountDown voting, it means that those are the same numbers needed to place first in the M CountDown votes. We have the numbers in this fandom to achieve great things, we just don't have the willingness.

intrepid wrote:I have had endless augments on YouTube about HelloVenus with people who think they have changed for the better,
@intrepid, "they have changed for the better" I felt sick when you said that..but it's a matter of opinion. Also, if at the end it does bring Hello Venus fame and fortune then it's hard to argue against.


intrepid wrote:Despite the fact that I pointed out that this has been their worst comeback by chart position and sales they still think view counts mean something which is quite frankly absurd.
@intrepid, LOL if views only counted then I'm wondering what they thought of Rebecca Black's Friday(btw, I not hating on Rebecca Black and no one should). Also, I refuse to watch Wiggle Wiggle videos because Fantagio spits on my intellect and offends me...the girls probably did work hard so I probably should be more respectful and check out their video and thumb up their video....I know if Pledis stuffed up big time like that I'll still do that for After School and support After School till the end while cursing Pledis...damn Fantagio.

intrepid wrote:Engaging the general public (in Korea) who aren’t “fans” but just buy music because its good is where I believe we need to focus our efforts and that is going to require some out of the box thinking and I certainly don’t have any answers on how to achieve it
@intrepid, you've got it all mixed up. Pledis are the ones that need to focus on engaging the general  Korean public(preferably not with the same technique Fantagio is using ). We need to focus on fixing this messed up fans because it is suppose to be this fandoms job to support After School when things don't go so well. We can also help promote After School to the general Korean public by doing things like help After School gain recognition by winning awards or getting them featured on Eat Your Kimchi but all that will come after we've fixed up this messed up fandom.

intrepid wrote:if the general public aren’t buying the music then it means nothing.
@intrepid, if the general Korean public isn't buying music then fans should be(if they can). Stop making excuses for the lack of support from international fans. If we can fix up this messed up fandom then we can proceed with plans  to make up for the lack of support from the Korean public and yes I do have plans to make up for the lack of support from the Korean public.



intrepid wrote:Engaging the general public (in Korea) who aren’t “fans” but just buy music because its good is where I believe we need to focus our efforts and that is going to require some out of the box thinking and I certainly don’t have any answers on how to achieve it
@intrepid, after this messed up fandom is fixed up I'll give you the answers.


intrepid wrote:but to achieve an “all kill” or high sales and chart positions means a hell of a lot more than view counts or trophies because sales is the meat and potatoes music groups and companies need to survive while that other stuff is snack food.
@intrepid, if you want to give After School meat and potatoes then see http://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t417-suggestion-system-to-allow-international-after-school-fans-to-contribute-to-digital-sales right now Shu and I are in the process of testing it out. That plan has its limitation but I've got more up my sleeves to make up for those limitations. Right now the only thing that'll stop that plan from working is the willingness of this fandom.

intrepid wrote:By joining our efforts something may present itself we haven’t yet thought of and it’s where I think we should start, what “can” we proactively do to promote to the general public?
@intrepid, I don't mean to be rude and I hope you don't take it the wrong way but...are you just using all this general Korean public stuff as an excuse to be lazy or  defend this messed up fandom? Since you don't have any ideas/plans and I've got plenty(and still more to come), how about we try out my plans?

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:37 am

No Adam, I didn't expect nothing of you. This is my opinion and I do have the right to have it. I already told you is pointless to explain anything furhter to you because you'll never agree with me nor I'll completely agree with you. I am not able to change my opinion because I already considered all the possibilities on each one of this matters. I don't fully blame just one party and not the fandom. Blaming Juyeon's departure on the whole fandom I don't find it right. However, no need to say it to you because you'll keep blaming it all on the fans. I don't think is wrong but it isn't fully right. Everyone has its part on the game.

The fact I don't had the time to study and why I cannot concentrate on that is because of my job. And I do eat, live, get dressed and such, so no, no chance to get more than 2 or 3 months to dedicate to study.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:54 am

OKDR wrote:No Adam, I didn't expect nothing of you. This is my opinion and I do have the right to have it.
@OKDR, you do have the right to have your opinion but that is not the issue here. You said that I can't deny that it is another failure on Pledis' part that they failed to take profit from the investment in Juyeon,  which means you do have an expectation for me to blame Pledis for Juyeon leaving unless I miss understood something. Maybe when you said "you can't deny this is another failure" you meant it figuratively no literally? Anyway I can more than deny it, I put the blame on fans that Pledis is in no position to negotiate with Juyeon to stay. If any of the other members want to leave too, Pledis has very little incentives they can use for negotiations. Stay with Pledis and waste your time and talents because your fandom doesn't care and is boycotting your management company or jump ship while you're not too old and still have a chance for success else where....the choice isn't that hard to make.


OKDR wrote:I already told you is pointless to explain anything furhter to you because you'll never agree with me nor I'll completely agree with you.
@OKDR, discussions aren't always about trying to convince the other party of your views. More importantly, there are about the exchange of ideas.

OKDR wrote:I am not able to change my opinion because I already considered all the possibilities on each one of this matters.
@OKDR, have you considered that Pledis might have tried to negotiate with Fantagio to keep Hello Venus together? From the way you blame Pledis and the way you avoid that point I brought up before, I don't think you'e taken it into consideration. If you have taken it into consideration then what concrete proof do you have that Pledis didn't try to negotiate with Fantagio to keep Hello Venus together? Your prejudice against Pledis is a major problem. From what I see, you are not reacting to facts or reason, you're reacting to your h8 for Pledis.

OKDR wrote:I don't fully blame just one party and not the fandom. Blaming Juyeon's departure on the whole fandom I don't find it right. However, no need to say it to you because you'll keep blaming it all on the fans. I don't think is wrong but it isn't fully right. Everyone has its part on the game.
@OKDR, I fully blame this fandom because I can put forth plenty of evidence against this fandom but nothing against Pledis. You, yourself name two of the points that is evidence against this fandom(actually you really just paraphrased 2 of my main points to what's wrong with this fandom) i.e. the not caring and boycotting. However when you attempted to put forth evidence against Pledis, all you did was express how wrong it was to break up Hello Venus, you still have yet to provide evidence that Pledis did anything wrong.

OKDR wrote:The fact I don't had the time to study and why I cannot concentrate on that is because of my job. And I do eat, live, get dressed and such, so no, no chance to get more than 2 or 3 months to dedicate to study.
@OKDR,....yeah you probably should concentrate on you job and study more but honestly it doesn't take much effort to run the Playgirlz Voter for 5 minutes a day to help get those MBC+ accounts. One of the main ideas behind using the Playgirlz Voter is to support After School when you don't have the time to support them through manual means.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by OKDR on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:05 pm

Of course I speak figuatively since there's more people involved in this discussion.

I don't say Pledis didn't try to not break the group nor Fantagio, but at the end they both did it, so yes I still believe it wasn't the best thing to do. If what the remaining members stated themselves isn't enough evidence for you, then there's nothing that I can add to it.  No Adam, I don't X Pledis, stating which things I find wrong is not X, is having an opinion. I think I've defended this company more than once in the past and the present. I say what I think isn't right and what I think it is. From that to hating there's a big difference. I just happen not to be deluded and say yes to everything they do. As far as I am concerned from thinking they've done things wrong to actually arming campaigns to collect signatures to abolish the graduation system or simply boycott any of their releases there's a long way. Especially when I've never stopped supporting everythinh they've released the best I could, spreaing the word as much as I could.

Adam, whenever you keep nagging on the same points people state on their opinions and using words as 'love' to describe their words you simply draw a line where only those whom think exactly like you are good, the rest of us, even those whom partially agree wit some of your views, are the ba guys. I am not falling further into this game. You trully end offending me anytime I try to hold a discussion. So I've decided from now on I'll just keep doing my own thing on trying to support the acts I like. I honestly don't appreciate when people just label those whom dare to have an opinion that's just critic with some aspects the agency has as haters. We're not all the same, and it gives the impression because I dare to say why I believe some things are wrong you only want to keep insisting I should feel guilty or something, always claiming to show evidence. I think I've provided you way enough evidence on why I won't change my opinion on certain things.

This is my last time posting here. Sincerely, I've said anything I had to say. You don't agree, that's fine. But I am not coming back to keep looping on the same thing all over again. You've stated everything is on the fandom. All right. Then I better not waste anymore time in it.



PS: by 'that' I meat studying. I still take my time to vote whenever it's possible to.

Really funny for the admins to hickjack the word 'h a t e' so it switches for love anytime you type it. Farewell.


Last edited by OKDR on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : changes word hate for love)
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:32 pm

OKDR wrote:I don't say Pledis didn't try to not break the group nor Fantagio, but at the end they both did it
@OKDR, I never thought or said that you were ever saying that Pledis or Fantagio tried not to break up Hello Venus. I am very aware that you are saying both Pledis and Fantagio broke up Hello Venus. What I've been saying is that you don't really know what happened and all you've been doing is making assumptions. It could be that Pledis were trying to prevent Hello Venus from breaking up.

OKDR wrote:If what the remaining members stated themselves isn't enough evidence for you, then there's nothing that I can add to it.
@OKDR, did the remaining members stated that Pledis broken up Hello Venus or were partly responsible for it? If they did you never mentioned they did. All you've told me was that Ara and Alice tried to get Tricell to keep them together and it didn't work but this in no way demonstrated that Pledis is at fault for anything. You just made assumptions and you haven't demonstrated you know the circumstance behind Pledis and Fantagio's break up or why it was decided that the relationship between Pledis and Fantagio wasn't going to work.

OKDR wrote:I don't X Pledis, stating which things I find wrong is not X, is having an opinion.
@OKDR, you don't h8 Pledis? Oh, OK sorry I've mistaken. It's just some of the stuff you've said makes you sound like people who are hold grudges against Pledis for the stupidest reasons. Usually these people are Pledis haters. Also, the fans that criticize Pledis for breaking up Hello Venus do hold hatred for Pledis for that break up. You don't have such hatred?


OKDR wrote:Adam, whenever you keep nagging on the same points people state on their opinions and using words as 'love' to describe their words you simply draw a line where only those whom think exactly like you are good, the rest of us, even those whom partially agree wit some of your views, are the ba guys.
@OKDR, firstly you have to be aware that you may be entitle to state your opinion but me and every other reader are also entitle to state our opinion about why your opinion is wrong. Secondly, I called you out as a Pledis hater because your default thoughts seem to be they think badly of Pledis and the evidence you provide lacks any relevance to Pledis' wrong doings. The things you say sound like you are discrediting Pledis and you avoid providing anything relevant to back them up. It's not that I've drawn the line where those who agree with me are good and those who disagree with me are bad. All I've done is explain what are some of the major problems with this fandom. You've stated there are things that Pledis has messed up on this year. You've used the Hello Venus break up to try to demonstrate your point. I do not agree with you but I have not drawn any lines to categorize those who agree with me as the good guys and those who do not agree with me as the bad guys. After multiple attempt, you have not provided anything to back up your point so I thought your failure to do so was because or some sort of prejudice against Pledis. Your reasoning is that since Hello Venus didn't want to break up and their request to stay together together was rejected then it must be both Pledis and Fantagio's fault. The fact is that you have not demonstrated that you know why they broke of or why and who really rejected their request to stay together. Basically you lack the facts to be certain who's at fault but you treat it as you do have these facts.

OKDR wrote:I am not falling further into this game. You trully end offending me anytime I try to hold a discussion.
@OKDR, I am sorry if I have offended you...hmm, I think I've already offended you and the entire fandom already when I wrote the first post. Was it the me calling you a Pledis hater that offended you or was it you thinking I'm saying that everyone that disagrees with me is is the bad, guy that offended you? Just to be clear, I don't think you are a bad. However if you are going around telling people Pledis sucks because of the Hello Venus break up then I think you are a problem. You are entitled to your opinion and you certainly are entitle to speak it but be aware that I'm entitle to my opinion that such actions are a major problem. Spreading lies about Pledis is what causes Pledis to receive a lot of unwarranted h8. That unwarranted h8 has lead this fandom to try to discredit and protest against Pledis and that's basically why I see you as a potential problem. Right now a lot of fans are going to h8 Pledis for this Hello Venus break up thing.


OKDR wrote:I honestly don't appreciate when people just label those whom dare to have an opinion that's just critic with some aspects the agency has as haters.
@OKDR,  I'll repeat, I didn't call you a Pledis hater because your opinion disagree with my opinion. I called you out as a Pledis hater because multiple times(and even right now) you've failed to prove the validity of your criticism for Pledis. so I thought that your criticism for Pledis was bases on prejudice against Pledis. Also, if you are not aware, fans that actually use that criticism usually do have a hatred for Pledis.

OKDR wrote:We're not all the same, and it gives the impression because I dare to say why I believe some things are wrong you only want to keep insisting I should feel guilty or something, always claiming to show evidence.
@OKDR, Keep in mind the amount of unwarranted h8, Pledis has received and effects of this unwarrented has that I've mentioned. I am not insisting that you feel guilty,   I am insisting that your keep an open mind and reserve your judgement for when you actually do have the facts...it likely you never will though. I always ask for fans to show evidence to back up their claims because I've been in a lot of debates with people and in a lot of those debates I find that a lot of arguments that's put forth by my opposition is false...hmmm, if you look around this forum, you'll find plenty of examples of what I'm talking about.

OKDR wrote:This is my last time posting here.
@OKDR, I sure hope you are talking about posting on this topic and not the the entire forum.

OKDR wrote:You've stated everything is on the fandom. All right. Then I better not waste anymore time in it.
@OKDR, yep, I blame After School's failures solely on the entire fandom...LOL, OK I'm come clean now, that is not exactly true. The truth is that I blame a most of After School's problems on this fandom. There are things I blame Pledis for(very little things compared to what this fandom has messed up on) and you'll see that I have mentioned it on this forum and on Youtube comments. Even on this forum I've call Pledis incompetent but since I don't know the  circumstances to these observed incompetence, I've decided  to reserve my judgement of Pledis until I have all the facts  and that is what I'm trying to encourage you to do. To be fair, I judge Pledis and call out their incompetence without knowing the full situation too and I use the argument that they are responsible at the end of the day because they are After School's management company, which honestly is not necessarily
fair on Pledis because I know I don't have all the facts..but I still say it because I'm annoyed.

OKDR wrote:PS: by 'that' I meat studying.
@OKDR, I have no idea what you are talking about.

OKDR wrote: I still take my time to vote whenever it's possible to.
cheers you buy their album and vote when you can, not too much more I can ask for. I am also trying to change this fandom's mind about Pledis so this fandom promotes Pledis as an awesome company, LOL...but this fandom is basically a giant Pledis h8 club so I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

OKDR wrote:Really funny for the admins to hickjack the word 'h a t e' so it switches for love anytime you type it.
@OKDR yes...funny...ha..ha, dammit time to though this post to look for h a t e.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by intrepid on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:45 pm

@PlayboyzAdam
I probably shouldn’t bring a HV argument into this thread but statistically I think it proves a point you might appreciate about fans verses those I’m referring to as the general public.

While I personally think that musically HV have screwed up if you or others like the change that’s ok, I’m not criticising people for liking a style or type of music.

But “statistically” the numbers say that Sticky Sticky was their worst comeback by far only peaking at 87 and lasting 2 weeks in the chart, their previous single peaked at 32 and was in the charts for 7 weeks and remember this group consistently made mid 30’s from debut to the split on comebacks.

But what I find most interesting is album sales verses digital sales because I equate album sales to “fans” and digital sales to those I refer to as the “general public;” now this is rule of thumb thinking because some fans may only buy digital and some non-fans may buy physical but hear me out.

Most people nowadays don’t buy physical albums because in the digital age owning a CD is as about as useful as owning a record, the people who buy physical do so because it’s a “collectable” and those people I refer to as fans. HV’s album sales for Sticky Sticky were a little less than their previous release but charted the same at 6 in the album charts, this tells me the fanbase for HV was still there for them and that only a few had left. But just remember a lot of those sales for the album are pre-orders from up to two weeks and perhaps more in advance of the music actually dropping; if purchased in Korea or from an accredited store those sales are calculated on the “release date” not the date you pay the money.
However Album sales only make up a small percentage of total sales because the majority of people buy their music digitally and when Sticky Sticky was available for digital download there was a “huge” difference between how much it sold over their previous release and the reason is people buy Physical on “faith,” on what they “think” they are getting, but when people buy digital they know “exactly” what they’re getting because either the music has been released or because they heard the sample on a download site, either way it’s an “informed” decision.
Because the majority of sales are digital the largest percentage of purchases is from those I refer to as the “general public,” and based on the numbers they and the “fans” who only buy digital overwhelmingly rejected Sticky Sticky which is why it didn’t chart well and why it disappeared so quickly.

When it comes to view counts Sticky Sticky did quite well and collected counts fairly quickly, and when the Wiggle Wiggle video dropped that went through the roof in views going viral. But while the view counts are great they absolutely positively did not translate into sales nor did they reverse Sticky Sticky’s falling chart position.

Video views can also tell us something as well when you consider what music videos “actually are,” they are adverts for the music with the hope people will see the music then like it enough to buy it.
If a music video has a lot of views but its sales are low that says you have failed, not in marketing, but in connecting to the general public and that you need to change or do something different.
Views do not equate to sales yet its sales that really “matter” in the end to the group and its company; artificially making view counts raise without a corresponding raise in sales statically skews the information and creates a false economy. I have my reservations about the voter you created but when it comes down to it what exactly is the end game you are trying to achieve? While I can see some advantages to what it does it doesn’t address the key point I’m trying to get across, and that’s how to help Pledis market “whoever,” to maximise mass appeal “before” that person/group releases music for “financial success” rather than trying to do something “after the fact” which doesn’t really do anything other than win them awards (if it works like you hope); to me that’s shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

I want to be more proactive rather than retroactive when it comes to After School’s next comeback, I want to do something that helps them to chart well other than what I will do which is buy their album from Soompi, I’m willing to spend money if need be to help make it happen but like I said we need to figure out what would be the best bang for buck option and where to target it be it advert, giveaway, flyers handed out in school districts whatever, something to grab attention rather than the same 4-5 people arguing about who’s to blame or who’s lazy.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by Rirism on Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:56 am

I think i saw this somewhere so i'm going to clarify it. The Playgirlz Dazzling Awards got around 200+ votes. The fact that i didn't put a registration setting so people could vote only once could be the main reason there were so many votes. I'm saying this because the Love Letters received around 20 messages and 50% of them are from the same person. I don't know if either fans are lazy to write something or just don't know what to write or they don't think this is important but when we were gathering the messages for Nana and Raina's anniversary we received like 10 maybe for Nana and 5 for Raina which is sad that only 15 people wanted to write them messages. We wanted to send that to Raina and Nana but in the end we couldn't + there was only a donation about 20$ maybe and even if we had the money to send them we just didn't. The thing here is that whatever we do to promote our projects(i'm talking about mines and what i've seen since i'm on here) there are the same 10 people participating and i planned out really nice things for the future and i'd like people to be more active because in the end these projects are for After School and they surely mean something for them.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:47 pm

intrepid wrote:While I personally think that musically HV have screwed up if you or others like the change that’s ok, I’m not criticising people for liking a style or type of music.
@intrepid, I personally love how Hello Venus changed.

intrepid wrote:I equate album sales to “fans” and digital sales to those I refer to as the “general public
@intrepid, that is how I see it too. To back up this idea, look at Raina and San E's A Midsummer Night's Sweetness. It did very well in digital sales but I don't believe that fans were the reason why it did so well. Look at the amount of votes Raina and San E received from the MAMA Roses poll. Ignore the figures from the actual MAMA poll because not all those votes are from fans, it is a requirement that a voter votes in all categories so most of those votes are actually from people that just wanted to vote for their idols in other categories but are forced to vote for Raina and San E's categories. However the Roses poll is a cheer battle(as said by Mnet) to show your love to your idols and so it's the Roses poll that shows how much love Raina and San E got(no very much unfortunately) i.e. the vast majority that contributed to the digital sales were not fans of Raina or San E, they were the "general public".

intrepid wrote:Most people nowadays don’t buy physical albums because in the digital age owning a CD is as about as useful as owning a record, the people who buy physical do so because it’s a “collectable” and those people I refer to as fans.
@intrepid, I agree

intrepid wrote:I have my reservations about the voter you created but when it comes down to it what exactly is the end game you are trying to achieve?
@intrepid, a united fandom. One that is willing to put in the effort to help After School succeed.

intrepid wrote:While I can see some advantages to what it does it doesn’t address the key point I’m trying to get across, and that’s how to help Pledis market “whoever,” to maximise mass appeal “before” that person/group releases music for “financial success”
@intrepid, I'm not sure why you are pointing out the Playgirlz Voter's inability to market After School to the general Korean public when it wasn't design to do that...yet. If you can think of a way to use the Playgirlz Voter to market After School to the general Korean public please let me know and I'll implement it in the Playgirlz Voter. The only thing that comes close to what you want that I have planned for the Paygirlz Voter is a feature to get After School trending on Naver.

intrepid wrote:rather than trying to do something “after the fact” which doesn’t really do anything other than win them awards (if it works like you hope); to me that’s shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.
@intrepid, it seems like you've misunderstood the purpose of the Playgirlz Voter and purpose of winning those awards. The purpose of helping After School win those awards is to let After School know that we recognize their hard work and we appreciate their efforts. When After School does win, there will be news articles written about it and that will probably help generate more attention for After School but primarily, those awards are about recognition and appreciation.

intrepid wrote:I want to be more proactive rather than retroactive when it comes to After School’s next comeback, I want to do something that helps them to chart well other than what I will do which is buy their album from Soompi
@intrepid, OK then help us unite this fandom in our support for After School. A lot of projects fail because this fandom does give a damn and takes After School for granted. Help us use the Playgirlz Voter(I'm still not sure if you are against it or not anymore), when the time comes we need all the help we can get. Help After School win those awards to let them know that we recognize their hard work and we appreciate their efforts, let them know that they are not wasting their lives being After School members. If you want to do something that will help them chart well then participate in and help promote this http://afterschooldaze.forumotion.com/t417-suggestion-system-to-allow-international-after-school-fans-to-contribute-to-digital-sales so After School does well in the charts. If you want to be more proactive, then do what you can to encourage other fans to join our effects, e.g. take a screen shot of you streaming from Melon and tweet it to After School members to let them know you are supporting them and the spam the entire fandom with it(e.g. post it on twitter, the ASDAze forum, asdaze.com) do whatever you can to generate the hype that's needed.

intrepid wrote:I’m willing to spend money if need be to help make it happen but like I said we need to figure out what would be the best bang for buck option and where to target it be it advert, giveaway, flyers handed out in school districts whatever, something to grab attention rather than the same 4-5 people arguing about who’s to blame or who’s lazy.
@intrepid, hang on, you're not talking about adverts, giveaway and handing out flyers at school districts in Korean are you?

Rirism wrote:The Playgirlz Dazzling Awards got around 200+ votes.
@Riri, OK, thanks for clarifying. I said it got about 100 votes because I saw a tweet you made it about it.

Rirism wrote:The fact that i didn't put a registration setting so people could vote only once could be the main reason there were so many votes.
@Riri, you could vote multiply times?...that would have been useful to know earlier...oh well, I'm going to stick with just voting once. Seems more fairer to the fans that didn't know you could votes multiple times, beating 200 votes is kind of easy for me considering I use to vote manually 700+ times a day on Show Champion(LOL, although I could just automate the process).

Rirism wrote:I'm saying this because the Love Letters received around 20 messages and 50% of them are from the same person.
@Rirism, I haven't had the time to write my letters yet. It's getting harder for me to write these letters because I'm basically saying the same thing as I've done in previous letters. Although I guess something like, "Dear Kahi, I LOVE YOU I love you FIGHTING!!!!" should suffice...I'll put more though into the letter later.

Rirism wrote:I don't know if either fans are lazy to write something or just don't know what to write or they don't think this is important but when we were gathering the messages for Nana and Raina's anniversary we received like 10 maybe for Nana and 5 for Raina
@Rirism, I feel really sorry for Raina. At least Nana gets recognition for her beauty. It's like the universe was playing a cruel joke on Raina in 2014. There's been plenty of opportunities for fans to show Raina the love she deserves but instead this fandom showed Raina it doesn't give a damn about her.

Rirism wrote:We wanted to send that to Raina and Nana but in the end we couldn't + there was only a donation about 20$ maybe and even if we had the money to send them we just didn't.
@ASDaze, sorry guys. I wanted to donate but I'm having financial difficulties right now.

Rirism wrote:The thing here is that whatever we do to promote our projects(i'm talking about mines and what i've seen since i'm on here) there are the same 10 people participating and i planned out really nice things for the future and i'd like people to be more active because in the end these projects are for After School and they surely mean something for them.
@intrepid, you really should take not of what Riri has said in that quote. Riri is right, these projects do mean something and they mean a lot. In their earlier days, when After School performed, they weren't just there because it was their job. They, were there because they wanted to be. They were there for the fans and they were their because of their passion. After several years of consecutive defeats and lack of support from fans. That passion that once was there, is gone(from some of the members anyway). You would think, even if After School doesn't have fame, fortune or shiny awards, at least they still have the support for this fandom...no, they don't even have that and that's the biggest problem. I think you are wasting your time concentrating on helping Pledis market After School to the Korean public. This is very hard to do and at the end I still think it needs the support of a united fandom. From what I've seen, the most effective ways to market After School to the Korea public, includes featuring them in dramas and variety shows. UEE brought in a lot of fans from her dramas and Nana has brought in fans from her appearance in roommate( thanks newfanattractedbynanaonroomate for announcing yourself). But there's really not much we can do to help get After School member appearances on shows(except spam broadcasting companies and shows with requests but this still requires the support of a united fandom). Whether they appear on shows or not mainly depends on whether they get invited or not or how well they do for their auditions. I forget to add this to my list of the stupidest reasons for hating Pledis, fans use to h8 on Pledis because they think Pledis can magically get After School on TV shows at Pledis' will.

Another very effective method to market After School to the Korean public includes having the After School members engage the Korean public.

Watch from 4:59 and pay attention to 6:07.


There's not much we can do about getting After School members to engage the Korean public except make suggestions to Pledis. But who are we for Pledis to listen to us....Pledis h8 club?. ASDaze said that they wanted to be recognized by Pledis(I think Sonda was the one that said it...can't exactly remember now) and that's exactly what we need for Pledis to listen to us, recognition! However, to achieve things in order to gain Pledis' recognition we need the support of a united fandom(preferably one that isn't hating on Pledis)

@intrepid, if I haven't made it clear enough yet. What After School needs the most is the support of a united fandom, everything else will come after we have this fandom united.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by intrepid on Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:22 am

intrepid wrote:While I personally think that musically HV have screwed up if you or others like the change that’s ok, I’m not criticising people for liking a style or type of music.

PlayboyzAdam wrote:@intrepid, I personally love how Hello Venus changed.

All I can say is enjoy it while it lasts because after seeing their latest's MV they aren't going to be around much longer; my prediction is they'll disband either at the end of this year or next depending on when Fantagio admits its losing more money than its making on them.

intrepid wrote:I equate album sales to “fans” and digital sales to those I refer to as the “general public

PlayboyzAdam wrote:@intrepid, that is how I see it too. To back up this idea, look at Raina and San E's A Midsummer Night's Sweetness. It did very well in digital sales but I don't believe that fans were the reason why it did so well. Look at the amount of votes Raina and San E received from the MAMA Roses poll. Ignore the figures from the actual MAMA poll because not all those votes are from fans, it is a requirement that a voter votes in all categories so most of those votes are actually from people that just wanted to vote for their idols in other categories but are forced to vote for Raina and San E's categories. However the Roses poll is a cheer battle(as said by Mnet) to show your love to your idols and so it's the Roses poll that shows how much love Raina and San E got(no very much unfortunately) i.e. the vast majority that contributed to the digital sales were not fans of Raina or San E, they were the "general public".

San E and Raina's song was still charting at the end of 2014 and as far as I can tell has had about 1,500,000 digital downloads which is quite amazing and well deserved.  



intrepid wrote:I’m willing to spend money if need be to help make it happen but like I said we need to figure out what would be the best bang for buck option and where to target it be it advert, giveaway, flyers handed out in school districts whatever, something to grab attention rather than the same 4-5 people arguing about who’s to blame or who’s lazy.
PlayboyzAdam wrote:@intrepid, hang on, you're not talking about adverts, giveaway and handing out flyers  at school districts in Korean are you?

Yes, it's where the fandom needs to be grown.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by PlayboyzAdam on Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:56 pm

intrepid wrote:
PlayboyzAdam wrote:
intrepid wrote:While I personally think that musically HV have screwed up if you or others like the change that’s ok, I’m not criticising people for liking a style or type of music.

@intrepid, I personally love how Hello Venus changed.

All I can say is enjoy it while it lasts because after seeing their latest's MV they aren't going to be around much longer; my prediction is they'll disband either at the end of this year or next depending on when Fantagio admits its losing more money than its making on them.
@intrepid, ...there's been a little misunderstanding. I actually meant to write "I personally h8 how Hello Venus changed." but the forum changed  h a t e into love. I like how Pledis promoted Hello Venus, there were many aspects of Hello Venus that were similar to After School that Pledis gave Hello Venus, like the way they kept it classy while being sexy at the same time. When Fantagio promotes Hello Venus, they are trying to make Hello Venus appeal to my "primitive senses", unfortunately my more evolved senses tells me I'm being ripped off. Plus, if i wanted to satisfy my primitive senses there are better places I can go to for that(why you think the net was for?), what Fantagio is doing is all about the money and I'm not feeling any love from them...well that's my opinion anyway and who am I to criticize Fantagio for doing what they need to survive, I kinda abandom Hello Venus to help After School more.

I haven't seen their Wiggle Wiggle MV yet, I'll go later to thumb up them just to support them. You know can h8 what Fantagio is doing with Hello Venus and still support Hello Venus at the same time if you still care for Hello Venus.

intrepid wrote:San E and Raina's song was still charting at the end of 2014 and as far as I can tell has had about 1,500,000 digital downloads which is quite amazing and well deserved.
@intrepid, cool! I didn't know that. I don't usually check the charts.

intrepid wrote:
PlayboyzAdam wrote:@intrepid, hang on, you're not talking about adverts, giveaway and handing out flyers  at school districts in Korean are you?

Yes, it's where the fandom needs to be grown.
@intrepid, while I agree with the importance of developing the Korean side of the fandom, I think such direct attempts to do so at this stage is too ambitious. Before attempting such projects, I was thinking that we should work on improving our relationship with the Korean fanbases so they will help out. For such projects, we international fans can't do them on our own.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] What's Wrong With This Fandom

Post by Babbitkpop on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:13 pm

I have been meaning to post a reply because its something that I have been feeling for a long time. First I would like to say that I am so happy that I have found ASDaze because I have felt since 2009 that I was alone in my love for AS or OC except whenever they made a comeback and the only love I saw was on YouTube so I am happy I have found a home for my love for these girls.

I got into kpop in 2008 with Son Dam Bi's Bad Boy and that lead me to the discovery of Kahi and After School when they debuted with Ah! It was so new and exciting to me and I instantly fell in love with the first generation especially when Diva came out which made me realize that I have found my fandom of my own. Since I have been there from the start and being an older fan, I can say that I completely agree with you Adam and thank you for writing this! I don't know if we share similar opinions because we have seen them way back but I'll put my two cents in.

Since I got into AS in 2009 and I was 15 I didn't have the resources to buy an album or singles unless I received an iTunes gift card. But, I did vote quite a lot but I felt discouraged because back in the day lol some sites didn't have english sites that explained to you how to vote. That would sometimes stop me from voting so I am very happy now that there's a voting system in which I can install and vote with ease especially as a university student. But I was also discouraged from the lack of fans voting. After BOY everything just went downhill not instantly but slowly. I started thinking, has AS really peaked? Of course not! They have soo much to offer and no one notices the hard work that each and every member whether they have graduated or not have put into each comeback. Now that I am older and have my own money I have started buying their albums in hopes that one day I can see their glory days during BOY promotions return and stay for good.

As for Kahi, I can't express the gratitude that I have with this talented woman! Without her, there wouldn't be AS. AS was and is her dream come true and her baby. She paved the way for AS to become a reality and hats off to her because she didn't have it easy. She managed to lead a successful group and despite being in competition with the number of groups that came out in 2009, criticism of her age, one of the first groups to do a "sexy concept" despite the trend of cute, adorable songs, she and the other members managed to make a name for AS and to make sure they stuck around. I was also sad at the lack of love for her It's Me promotions and I don't know why. This was AS's leader and very popular member yet she didn't get the love she needed. Where fans angry she graduated? Maybe because Alice Sky passed away right before her comeback and all that backlash. Whatever the reason, she didn't deserve it and we should of stayed by her side. I must admit, she is a pioneer in trying new sounds but this song had to grow on me. The rest of the songs were amazing though! I hope she makes a successful comeback and that the rumors of her leaving Pledis isn't true.

Raina, oh Raina I am so sorry! To be honest, when they added her to AS I was a bit hesitant but then I loved what she brought to the group. Another confession, I disliked that in new performances in Diva she got Jung Ah's lines and I kind of had a bit of resentment towards her but I got over it. It wasn't her fault and I was just being too overprotective of Jung Ah and Diva (my favorite AS song) and I realized these changes will keep happening. I am glad OC came along because that made me start loving her and she's an amazing vocalist and has taken AS vocal ability to another level. I don't know if this is maybe a reason why Raina didn't get so much love because of these petty grudges but she certainly didn't deserve any backlash. I for one was shocked when I found out that she was going to debut as a solo not because I wanted a AS comeback but because I was worried about her health. 2 OC comebacks, a collaboration and her debut, not to mention all the other things she was doing.. But then I thought why not? She deserves it. She has proven herself and go for it! I feel bad that I ever had such feelings for her. I also read the article where she picked OC over AS and felt the same as you. Sad, annoyed even hurt! I thought she should be picking AS, that's her home, that's where she started but I understand that you can't pick something just because that's where you started. In OC, clearly it has given her more opportunities and attention.

Graduation system, the start of many discussions lol I for one am ok with it. When I first read that AS was going to have this system I was interested by this. I remember Kahi describing it as a way of After School to never disappear and a way for AS to continue for years and years even after they were gone. I know change is scary and something most people don't want but change is good. I like that members who feel they can make it on their own or whatever their reason, graduate. If we didn't have this system, AS would of been gone right now with the recent graduation of Jupal, Jung Ah is the only original member left. Without this system we wouldn't have met UEE, Raina, Nana, Lizzy, E-Young and Kaeun as the member we have grown to love. Maybe they would have debuted, maybe they wouldn't of had. I have been through 4 graduations and although I am used to it, it does't mean its hard to let go each time. I have also bad luck with my biases as each time I get a current bias in AS they are usually the next one to graduate. Happened with Soyoung, then Bekah (my ultimate bias in AS), then Kahi now Jupal. My current bias right now is UEE so watch out UEE fans lol Anyway I am happy for this system because that means when I am 80 I know that there is whatever generation still performing as AS.

Worst time to comeback...I can't believe this is an excuse! Doesn't matter when AS makes a comeback, we should be there supporting them! Doesn't matter if we get #1 or not, although it would be nice, if the members know we are trying I feel that'll be almost as rewarding. Remember AS once just a triple crown, that can and will happen again!

Since Bekah is my ultimate bias in AS I am a little sensitive of this topic. I for once don't believe Pledis kicked Bekah out. From what I remember Bekah wanted to be a fashion designer and therefore wanted to concentrate on that. I strongly don't think Pledis is capable of doing that. I know however that during Bekah's last months many "fans" and others were calling her fat which is soooooooo incredibly rude, disrespectful and just plain mean. She is a beautiful woman with lovely curves and I love her for loving herself. Maybe she left from all the negative comments being thrown at her and just said I don't have to take this. Either way if Pledis forced her to graduate would they have let her record a graduation song. To date she has been the only graduate to record a farewell song. Plus she also attended the wedding of the CEO, made a featuring in Kahi's It's Me mini album and well a bunch of other things.

I also don't think Pledis kicked Kahi out for being too old. Would she have debuted in the first place? I just think she felt that AS was in a place where they could manage without her and where she wanted to start her own chapter and show everyone who Park Kahi is. This is like saying is Jung Ah too old? because she's in her 30's as well.

Lastly I am sad I didn't get to see a AS comeback last year but their reasoning was enough. AS is never known for putting out mediocre songs or dances or anything for that matter. I love that they are putting their 100% into the next comeback and I hope that we all support it. I didn't mind OC having 2 comebacks. Hey that means more recognition for AS. We have to remember that AS=OC and therefore it shouldn't matter who does and doesn't make a comeback as long as we support them. Sorry this is so long and rant over! Love you all! <3
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Babbitkpop
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